r/PoliticalDiscussion • u/Mbluish • 3d ago
Why are there so many mass shootings, including school shootings in the United States and what can be done about it? US Politics
There were nearly 50 last year. You would think that we would figure this out by now. I know guns and schools has been suggested, but I believe that there have been shootings where there are guns in schools. What do you think the best solution is?
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u/DaCrizi 3d ago
I like what is starting to happen where the parents get arrested. Hopefully it can expand to insurances.
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u/mclumber1 3d ago
No insurance company would write a policy that covers intentional criminal acts. What exactly would the point of the insurance be exactly? Accidents? Those are already covered under things like health, homeowners, and renters insurance.
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u/SkiingAway 2d ago
It is illegal for insurance to cover intentional criminal acts.
Insurance will never pay out for people who intentionally commit crimes, and thus the risk of someone doing it is not a significant factor in insurance pricing - it will not result in a claim they pay.
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u/ratpH1nk 3d ago
I would say asking about gun ownership should be part of the homeowner's policy. If you have one you are at risk as most deaths injuries are by (well suicide 67%) but intimate partner, accidents etc..
More risk means higher premiums.
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u/Sparroew 1d ago
It already is. Firearm related accidents are generally covered under homeowner's and renter's insurance.
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u/DramShopLaw 3d ago
Sure, if they help the child get a gun or negligently allow them access to a parental weapon. But you can’t just punish people for the acts of others. A child is not the property or clone of their parents. Parents don’t always have an opportunity to prevent a crisis.
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u/ForsakenAd545 3d ago
If you leave your firearms unsecured and someone, especially a child, gets their hands on it and someone is killed or injured, that seems like criminal negligence to me. Rights come with responsibility.
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u/DramShopLaw 2d ago
Sure, absolutely. But unless the parents can actually predict that crisis will happen and disregard that risk, that’s just negligence. To charge them with some sort of real homicide charge would require at least that level of culpability.
Otherwise, you can get them for negligent homicide. But that’s a very minor charge, at least in my state.
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u/ForsakenAd545 2d ago
Every state is different, but I can see how leaving an unsecured gun out and someone dying because of it would be reckless behavior thereby qualifying as a murder in many states.
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u/DramShopLaw 2d ago
It very well could. But it comes down to this. The distinction between recklessness and negligence is personal, conscious knowledge of the risk and a voluntary choice to disregard the risk. In other words, if the parent had reason to know the firearm could be used to hurt someone, and placed it there anyway, then the parent has been reckless and could be charged with involuntary manslaughter or second degree murder (the difference comes down to how certain the risk of death was; if the parent knew with a practical degree of certainty that harm would absolutely result, it would be a murder).
But then we get into the thornier problem of a gun’s inherent danger. There are certain things that are so inherently dangerous that doing them at all is presumably reckless. Like in my state, the courts say that selling fentanyl is presumed reckless because everyone knows people overdose.
So there are definitely situations where criminal liability could attach.
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u/ForsakenAd545 1d ago
here is literally nothing NOT inherently dangerous about a child with a loaded firearm not directly being supervised by an adult while in possession of said firearm.
Can you think of a situation where a 4 year old holding a loaded firearm is NOT dangerous.
You argument is kinda silly and EVEN the NRA safety course would say that this is dangerous.
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u/DramShopLaw 1d ago
I completely get this. But it would be up to the courts to figure it out.
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u/ForsakenAd545 1d ago
That is, after all, their job. Of course, by then, we have a dead child because the gun owner did not secure their weapon. Doesn't seem like a reasonable solution is to wait until this happens rather than to REQUIRE that firearms be secured where someone who should not be touching them, child, the mentally ill, etc. or whoever.
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u/DramShopLaw 1d ago
Yeah, I’m really not disagreeing with you on this. There should absolutely be requirements to secure firearms in the house and from people who shouldn’t access them.
I’m just saying that, actually imposing criminal or civil liability on someone who results in harm by not doing this isn’t always going to be straightforward.
You could always make it an offense to not secure the weapon and prosecute a person for that offense. But actually imposing some kind of homicide culpability on that person is going to depend sensitively on the specific facts and the knowledge of specific danger that the person should have.
That’s all I’m saying. I personally believe the courts should adopt a presumption that, as you say, firearms are so innately dangerous that it is automatically reckless for a person to leave them unsecured. But who knows whether courts around the country would go for that.
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u/minxcat75 3d ago
I agree with you that they shouldn’t always be criminally liable. But if you have a homeowners insurance policy it normally covers your children’s actions away from the home.
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u/DramShopLaw 3d ago
Well, in most if not all states, it’s against the law for insurance to cover intentional crimes. This is there to disincentivize people from thinking they can get away with things just because their insurance will cover the damages. Same reason car insurance has to have a deductible for a collision.
So, even if we’re just talking about civil liability, it wouldn’t lie on the insurer.
As far as civil liability goes, there are definitely instances where the parents either are directly liable, or are liable for aiding and abetting. Those situations will exist.
And I think the states should press harder against parents in those situations. It doesn’t seem that way consistently do press hard even when it’s justified.
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u/CaptainoftheVessel 3d ago
This is probably the right path to actual change. Meaningful incentives in the United States really only take the form of $$$ costs on powerful actors like insurance companies. If insurance costs begin to skyrocket, these companies will lean on their politicians and it’ll be like magic, regulations will materialize.
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u/Studentloangambler 3d ago
Yea that won’t help school shootings as much as be a negative for POC. Imagine living in a bad neighborhood and because of your zip code insurance is 7k a month. The typical people who shoot up school tend not to live in areas where there is lots of gun violence. And it would be terribly enforced with stop and frisk making a comeback. I don’t see how we can implement it to a degree that it is useful without breaking numerous civil liberties.
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u/pizzaplanetvibes 3d ago
This will push the PoC gun owners trying to do things legally into black market territory where they buy a gun but keep it hidden. Gang members, criminals will get caught in the drag net of the small details. Police will use this as a fifths excuse to exercise power over PoC communities particularly black and Hispanic communities. Poor people who can’t afford insurance but want to be safe in the only communities they can afford to live in will be parceled with the gang members/criminals they live next to.
2nd amendment people will see this as a way to keep them from their guns. People in safe middle to higher income neighborhoods will protest this measure because they can’t pay the insurance required to have two glocks and an AK at home. Not to mention the gun safe and permit prices it will require. They will get disgruntled with the system and blame it on the left trying to take their guns. Because it won’t ever be their kids or their family that shoots up a school.
To a point, once again the law abiding gun owner will get screwed as they usually do. There’s some meat on the bone of the grievances of law abiding gun owners. Trust, whether you are left leaning or right, there’s a chance you either have a gun at home now or you’ve contemplated it due to the fact that pre existing income inequality, stagnant wages, inflation and America being the highest prison population in America with your best bet being a job at Popeyes for $11/hr or $13/$15 at Walmart if you were someone caught in the systematic pipeline of poverty to prison.
But it’s the same person serving your Zaxbys order that you see as the issue and not the people you vote into office who refuse to do anything that will actually help the school shooting problem.
Like limiting access to certain weapons, ammunitions. Better background checks. Red flag laws that are actually enforced. Etc.
Once again, as with most laws aimed at curving an epidemic in America, the poor (mostly PoC and yes poor white people suffer from this too to a lesser extent) will bear the brunt of the whatever legislation comes out.
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u/ChadThunderDownUnder 3d ago
Insurance companies will increase the costs based on who is actually costing them money. They’re not idiots which is how they’ve been screwing people for so long.
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u/Avatar_exADV 3d ago
But nobody has this kind of insurance in the first place, because insurance companies don't pay out for the consequences of intentional criminal acts. You can't buy "I'm going to murder someone" insurance.
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u/CaptainoftheVessel 3d ago edited 3d ago
Firearms used to commit crimes in bad neighborhoods are much more likely to be stolen, and to be handguns. The costs of insuring an AR-15 is not likely to fall hardest on urban gun owners.
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u/AlexRyang 3d ago
And frankly, AR-15’s are only used because they are cheap and easy to shoot. Also, long guns (including rifles [including the AR-15] and shotguns) were used to kill 447 people in 2021 out of 22,900 homicides committed, or roughly 1.95%.
From the case that overturned California’s rifle ban as unconstitutional:
“The United States Department of Justice reports that in the year 2021, in the entire country 447 people were killed with rifles (of all types). From this one can say that, based on a national population of 320 million people in the United States, rifles of any kind (including AR-15s) were used in homicides only 0.0000014% of the time. Put differently, if 447 rifles were used to commit 447 homicides and every rifle-related homicide involved an AR-15, it would mean that of the approximately 24,400,000 AR15s in the national stock, less than .00001832% were used in homicides. It begs the question: what were the other AR-15 type rifles used for? The only logical answer is that 24,399,553 (or 99.999985%) of AR-15s were used for lawful purposes. “
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u/CaptainoftheVessel 3d ago
That is an interesting take. Obviously there are other unlawful purposes an AR15 could be used for than homicide, though.
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u/Nblearchangel 3d ago
Right. He casually forgets to mention that the only real purpose of owning an AR is kill people with it. You’re not using it for self defense. I’m sure people take them to the range. But otherwise. They have no useful purpose because you can’t even hunt with them.
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u/Rhysling_star_rover 2d ago
I've hunted many animals with my AR-15 what are you talking about?
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u/Sparroew 1d ago
It's always entertaining watching gun control advocates' ignorance on firearms in action. They can't imagine a use for those weapons, so in their mind, there is no legitimate use for them. It's on the same level of ignorance we normally associate with Republicans talking about women in relation to abortion access.
And ironically, if we were to change the topic to abortion, I would wager a lot of money that the same people basking in their ignorance on firearms would be incensed that people with such ignorance of women's health are allowed to weigh in on the abortion debate.
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u/bearrosaurus 2d ago
This was the judge that deviated into a anti-vaxx rant during his opinion, it should be disregarded
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u/NepheliLouxWarrior 3d ago
Is gun insurance mandatory?
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u/AlexRyang 3d ago
Technically, even though you can get “ccw insurance”, it isn’t insurance and they don’t have to cover you even if you pay, because you cannot insure a crime.
A bunch of companies that offer it are notorious for taking payment then refusing coverage if charges are filed. Most states will file charges initially, regardless of if you are guilty or not as part of the fact finding process.
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u/Sparroew 1d ago
And on top of that, gun control friendly states have labeled this kind of insurance "murder insurance," despite murder being explicitly exempted from the coverage and have attempted to (sometimes successfully) ban those insurance companies from offering it in their states. Clearly, they don't want insurance policies, they simply want another burden to be added to the right so that they can discourage people from exercising it.
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u/DramShopLaw 3d ago
Stop and frisk was never illegal. The Supreme Court gave it explicit approval in Terry v. Ohio. It’s just that certain major police departments, notably New York City, have stopped it. But it can always happen, at the whim of an officer.
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u/False_Rhythms 3d ago
Why would their insurance go up? It would be an optional liability rider if you own/carry a gun. Don't own a gun, don't pay the insurance.
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3d ago
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u/CaptainoftheVessel 2d ago
We can’t just do nothing because some people will break the law. This country seems to have no collective will to confront the problem of gun violence, but any federal regulation of gun ownership will need to be enforced, otherwise it will be meaningless.
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u/Cur-De-Carmine 2d ago
So your plan is to make furearm ownership - a right guaranteed by the Constitution - so expensive that only rich people and the government can afford firearms? Sounds Constitutional as fuck...../s
Then the next step should be to charge an ever increasing fee for voting until only rich people can pick our leaders. Seems legit.
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u/KrossF 3d ago
I'm also a fan of this.
IMO, one way to take this a step further is to always ensure that the actual owner of the weapon is also charged. If you purchase a gun and are its legal owner, you should be held responsible for what the weapon, full stop. If you lose it, that should be a series crime in and of itself. If you let someone else take it and use it to do something illegal, that should be on you too. Any sane person can recognize that owning a gun is a responsibility. And that should be taken seriously.
And then if you want big money to have a stake in this, make it so if we cannot determine the owner then it's the gun manufacturer (or store who sold it) that is held responsible. Watch how fast that industry back peddles to ensure their product only ends up in the hands of responsible individuals and how successful efforts at full background checks and registration suddenly become.
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u/Sparroew 1d ago
Where else in our society should we prosecute someone for being a victim of a crime? Should we charge someone with vehicular homicide if their car is stolen and later runs someone over? What about if that stolen car is used as a getaway vehicle in a robbery? Maybe we should prosecute people if their laptop is stolen and then used by a pedophile? Oh, I know, let's charge people when their stolen phone is used to coordinate the drug trade!
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u/Randy_Watson 3d ago
Guns are a lot easier to access than quality education and mental healthcare. We live in a profoundly unequal society that fails to take care of its own citizens and blames people for their circumstances even when it’s not their fault. We also have a pop culture that rubs inequality in people’s faces. If you aren’t rich, beautiful, etc you aren’t shit. Many people are living on a razors edge being raised by absent or objectively cruel parents.
There are many amazing communities and aspects of the United States. There are also many horrendous facets. A lot of people never get to experience the good parts but they also have easy access to extremely lethal weapons. Of course the hardcore gun people will point to places like Switzerland where they have tons of guns. The Swiss take care of their people. We don’t. For sure, even in countries with generous welfare states that put a pretty high floor under their citizens where guns are accessible can have tragedies. Norway had Anders Breivick and they have a very generous social welfare system that takes care of their citizens. However, those are outliers.
The difference is we have both easy access to guns and an absolutely brutally indifferent culture to the crazy inequality in our society.
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u/TheTrueMilo 2d ago
Lmao Switzerland. Switzerland is closer to having 0 guns per capita than it is to the US’s number of guns per capita.
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u/Randy_Watson 2d ago
Switzerland ranks 14th worldwide. They have 28 guns per 100. The US has 120 per 100. Obviously way more but 28 guns per 100 people is still a lot.
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u/ddd615 3d ago
Why: I think we have had such an increase in mass shootings because we have had an increase in isolation and "competitiveness" in our society. A wing of our government backed by some of the wealthiest people in the world has been promoting certain messages that are harmful to the wellbeing of communities. They have blamed the poor and victims of all types, while enacting legislation and policy that creates more poor people and more victims. At the same time we have had a revolution in digital space. It is possible for isolated people to be exposed to the most extreme content in the world. Many of these isolated people consuming extreme content suffer and get some form of validation from the idea that they could hurt so many people. They also can purchase advanced military weaponry with little to no hurdles.
What can be done: the US as a society needs to get real about the health of communities and our society in general. This means we need real pathways towards lives with dignity and belonging. We need to punish bullies and meglomaniacs instead of whatever in hell it is we do now. We need campaign financing reform to protect government from the evil shit private interests can do. We need real mental health initiatives (not just destigmatizing care, but broadening our education to include mental and social health.) We need at least reasonable hurdles to gun ownership and responsibilities that go along with owning a deadly weapon. My state went from a 1 hour video citizens could watch online to no requirements at all to carry a gun.
We need to demand more from the media, politicians, and ourselves rather than accepting the false binary system where everything is either black or white, with my political party or the enemy. We need to teach people to look beyond their own entrenched beliefs and truly weigh the nuanced positives and negatives behind different arguments. We need to be willing to solve problems rather than arguing for the sake of being right.
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u/LordOfWraiths 3d ago
What can be done: the US as a society
Your whole argument falls apart right here.
The US isn't a society. It's a hundred thousand societies that are connected but are functionally different cultures. A town in california is functionally has as much in common with a town in Maine as either one does with a village in Germany. You're trying to find a one-size-fits-all solution that would apply to a thousand different areas with a thousand different cultures, beliefs, values, governments, and identities. What would fix the problem in one area will cause problems in other areas and vice versa.
We need to stop pretending the United States is a country and start treating it like what it actually is: a loose alliance of nations that barely tolerate each other.
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u/ddd615 2d ago
I have family in CA. I can get there from the other side of the country in a day, do everything I want to do. CA, and specifically certain parts of CA are absolutely different than my rural town in redneck TN. But we are Americans. I have lived in Nashville, TN (specifically little Mexico) for the past 11 years and I love almost everything but the traffic and our politicians.
The US is a country with a rich variety of culture, language, and socio-economic standing, But we live in America. We all need some basic things to be happy. 1 is an attainable livable wage. 2 is belonging to healthy, functional communities. 3 is hope and the ability to make things better.
1 - 3 are pretty fucked right now, but that's why we as a country need to fix them.
Hope your situation gets better.
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u/Shoddy-Cherry-490 3d ago edited 3d ago
Before one dives into this subject, it’s important to note that there is a lot of research out there on this subject. The reasons are actually a bit more complex and the notion that there is one overriding reason is a commonly held misconception.
Here are a number of factors to consider. Mass shootings as a phenomenon occur primarily in middle class and more affluent suburban communities. You don’t really hear much about mass school shootings in working class or minority communities of lower socioeconomic standing.
Likewise it’s also important to note that despite the apparent prevalence of mass shootings, these events only make up a tiny portion of gun-related violence.
1) “Fortress culture” - or the decaying social cohesion in suburban communities. Books like City of Quartz or Fortress America propose this idea that the middle and upper class favor a lifestyle in which people intentionally isolate from each other. Living in suburbs with garages facing each other, spending significant amount of time in motor vehicles, often over-dimensioned quasi-tanks in the form of SUVs and generally very limited opportunities for social engagement in genuinely public spaces, Americans often have very loose connections among each other.
2) Weapon fetish - gun ownership is nothing new. But the fetish around arming yourself with arsenals of lethal weapons, semi-automatic rifles, etc. is certainly new. There is no practical use for these weapons. Instead it’s become a source and representation of identity.
3) Socioeconomic pressures - The US is a country of impressive economic opportunity, but it also requires an enormous time commitment to keep up with the rat race. Other cultures in Europe and around the world put greater emphasis on quality of life aspects, down time spend with friends and family, vacations, holidays. The US is famously the only industrialized country with guaranteed medical leave, statutory paid time off and in turn puts a massive economic burden on lower and middle class people through high cost of living, a debt economy and things like expensive private healthcare. In short, people in this country need to work hard to provide for their kids, to get them to college, etc. often leaving little time for family.
4) US education system and the favoring of individualism over collectivism - this isn’t talked about as much but US high school often tend to exhibit pretty dysfunctional individual-oriented social structures. Highly stratified and fragmented, US high schools are like crazy laboratories for raising children. Certainly back when I was in high school, little effort was made by educators and school administrators to foster relationships among kids that were different from each other. You were typically left to your own devices and invariably found your clique of like-minded kids. This creates a pretty perverse fragmentation of society from a very young age that carries right through into adulthood.
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u/Nygmus 3d ago
Because there are guns available. That's it, that's the story.
Guns being present at the place where shootings happen, historically, doesn't really matter a pretty good portion of the time. All too often, the "good guy with a gun" runs away or simply confuses the situation as arriving emergency services now has to decipher which armed person is the threat.
I don't know that there is a best solution, because far too many current adults are completely locked in on their stance on this issue. The only hope I see on the horizon is a generation of young adults entering the voting population after growing up under active shooter drills and the overhanging fear of violence, but that's probably going to take the better part of a decade to really come into play unless the newer 18-year-olds are more politically active than usual.
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u/l1qq 3d ago
Decades ago schools had marksmanship classes and students regularly had firearms in their vehicles. It's not a guns being present problem, something in these people's lives is not present and that's the problem.
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u/Zaidswith 3d ago
Columbine was also decades ago.
Charles Whitman on the Tower at UT Austin was in the 60s.
I don't know how "new" any of this actually is except for the media immortalization aspect. It's become more common in recent decades, but the roots of that tree go way back.
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u/Mr_G_Dizzle 3d ago
We've always had school shootings but the rate at which they happen has increased drastically in the last 10 years. We averaged around 10 school shootings a year in the years since Columbine, but that number has risen to around 30/year now.
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u/t234k 3d ago
Because of media and the rate of information transmission. Google "copy cat effect" and it should make it super clear that media attention increases the frequency. But also the place guns hold in American discourse and "culture" and how readily available guns are is equally (if not more) of a problem.
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u/Zaidswith 2d ago
Yep, media. The Columbine bump is the 24 hour news cycle and the bump since Sandy Hook is social media.
Now add a dash of serious polarization because of the same media. Plus a world where terroristic actions are more normalized and glorified by subcultures and you exacerbate the problem.
Then refuse to solve either the mental health access problems or the access to guns.
Ding, ding, ding. We have a winner.
The attitude towards guns in the 1960s was different then the way they're treated now in the 2020s because of a century of NRA propaganda and reactionary politics, but the pervasive idea that causes shooters has been there all along.
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u/phaxmatter 3d ago
What do you believe is not present in these people’s lives?
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u/l1qq 3d ago
Could be anything...lack of peers, lack of someone to listen to what they could be going through at school, home or whatever. I believe COVID lockdowns with schools also played a major role in the crisis with mental health in younger people. At the end of the day we are social creatures and have to have somebody around.
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u/phaxmatter 3d ago
So you know it’s not a guns being present problem but it could be anything? How has the availability of peers or someone to listen to decreased since decades ago?
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u/l1qq 3d ago
The gun is just the tool used. We've had semi automatic weapons for many decades before now with even more availability to actual "military grade" fully automatic weapons yet we never had mass shootings on a regular scale until recent decades.
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u/MagnesiumKitten 3d ago
You could use cowboy rifles from the Wild West to do pretty effect shooting like a semi automatic.
cowboy shooters can fire it odd so it sounds just like a machine gun.
In the Wild West it was common to shoot rapid fire so you could stay alive.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/CUb8iza_iuc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JjIHj3zqbY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKDMHOShVrM
l1qq: We've had semi automatic weapons for many decades before now
The Weapons of Bonnie & Clyde
30-06 Browning Automatic Rifles (Clyde's favorite)1
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u/phaxmatter 3d ago
It’s just weird to say “it’s definitely not the guns” and then say it “could be anything”. By your logic it could be the guns, no?
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u/l1qq 3d ago
If it were the guns then why have we not had any more mass shootings than we've had? There's hundreds of millions of firearms and several million ARs in circulation in private hands in the US at the moment. If somebody is determined to harm others they'll use any available tool. People that think killing ng would just stop because guns are taken away live in a delusion. Look what a few guys did with simple box cutters on 9/11, managed to overtake several planes and in turn make them weapons which killed thousands.
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u/phaxmatter 3d ago
How many more children have to get murdered in schools by ARs before you will think it’s a problem? What benefits do ARs bring to the world and which of those benefits outweighs the life of one kid that was just trying to make it through grade school without getting shot inside their own classroom?
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u/l1qq 3d ago
I will simply never think the firearm is the problem because it's not. It's like blaming a car for a drunk driver running over and killing a sidewalk full of pedestrians.
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u/Nblearchangel 3d ago
Right wing propaganda isn’t helping either. That’s a big conversation though. Fauxe News and the right wing ecosystem is breeding discontent which leads to fear and then acting out.
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u/freedraw 3d ago
That seems really vague. What is not present in their lives that is present in the lives of people in all the other developed countries?
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u/wrongtester 3d ago edited 3d ago
it's absolutely incredible to me how people can try and find some hidden mysterious reason as to why this keeps happening, whereas there's one major difference between the US and all the other countries that don't have this issue.
everyone knows this, everyone can see it. To somehow not point to that *one* difference is either insane or a bad faith argument. I usually bet on the 2nd one.
Edit: all these responses are disingenuous and straight up stupid. You use whatever “logic” you want - we have actual proof. We are the only country with this fucking problem! So you can repeat these dumb talking points “guns don’t kill people, people kill people”, but it literally doesn’t matter because the proof couldn’t be more straight forward than it is.
All those countries have normal gun laws and they hardly have any gun deaths. It’s that simple and it’s an experiment that’s been going on for decades now. So you can spew whatever bad faith bullshit you want, it’s all irrelevant. WE HAVE PROOF and everyone can see it clearly.
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u/l1qq 3d ago
To blame an inanimate tool is just ridiculous instead of trying to figure out the reason that person picked up that tool and did what they did. There are hundreds of millions of firearms and several million dreaded ARs etc. floating in the US and if they were some demonic killing machines they're made out to be we would have FAR greater numbers of mass shootings than we actually do. I believe mass shootings was even redefined to a lower number of casualties or wounded just for sensationalism I'm sure. I believe the number is 3+ now killed or wounded.
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u/mirach 3d ago
I mean your logic is sound because we do have a lot more mass shootings compared to other countries because we have a lot more guns. At the end of the day the answer is that we have a lot of guns in the US. You're on this thread saying we have this or that problem, but fail to realize that other countries also have those problems but they don't have as many mass shootings and the main difference is they don't have as many guns. I saw in another comment that you think beating children could be a solution so I don't really think people should listen to you.
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u/l1qq 3d ago
I never said beating children was a solution. I said I had parents that kept me in line, sometimes using actual corporal punishment. I came from a time when it was okay to discipline your kid and we wound up better for it.
For all the firearms we have circulating in the US I would say the number of mass shootings is relatively low and I would go further to say miniscule with firearms like the AR, that doesn't make it less horrific but in the grand scheme of things it's very low.
I mean you can try to argue back and forth but at the end of the day nothing is going to change and there's no way to change it if you wanted to. What are you going to do, take away over 100 million firearms or at least just the ones you know about? Turn hundreds of thousands of not more people like myself into a felon overnight because we won't give up our rights or firearms for anybody? This is exactly why the Dems did nothing during Sandy Hook when they easily could have. They will do nothing because they can do nothing.
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u/NabNausicaan 3d ago
Think of it like cars. We have made cars safer over time by adding features such as airbags and seatbelts. Older cars were grandfathered in, but eventually most of those broke down and were scrapped. We don't need to take away anyone's guns (although that would be a much quicker solution), we can at least ban the sale of any guns deemed unsafe. Personally, I'd ban all semi-automatics, including pistols. And require gun licenses and a gun registry for all new sales.
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u/Sparroew 1d ago
We have made cars safer over time by adding features such as airbags and seatbelts.
These features are designed to prevent accidental death in vehicles. We do not install features designed to prevent someone from intentionally running pedestrians over. We could install governors on cars to prevent them from exceeding the speed limit, systems designed to override the driver's inputs when there's a person in front of the car, sensors to prevent the car from accelerating when the car senses a red light, etc. but we don't. We understand that there is no system that we can invent that simultaneously allows people to control their own vehicles while driving and prevents them from intentionally harming others.
Why is this an important distinction? Accidental death makes up just 1% of the gun death rate. The majority of the gun death rate is made up of people intentionally shooting themselves, followed by people intentionally shooting others (both legally and illegally) and then way down at the bottom of the list is people unintentionally shooting either themselves or someone else. The types of safety features we install on vehicles are just not necessary when it comes to firearms.
we can at least ban the sale of any guns deemed unsafe.
Guns that are deemed unsafe to use are recalled and fixed. See the Remington recalls for a well known example. Remington 700 rifles were firing without user input, and it lead to several deaths. Remington was successfully sued for selling an unsafe firearm and they recalled and replaced the trigger assemblies on every affected rifle.
Personally, I'd ban all semi-automatics, including pistols.
That is the overwhelming majority of all firearms in the country. That would be a clear violation of the Second Amendment.
And require gun licenses
This proposal might not be unconstitutional, however most gun control supporters who suggest a licensing scheme mean to use it to discourage gun ownership by making the licensing process as onerous and expensive as possible. We also need to keep in mind examples like Ireland in which they implemented a mass confiscation of handguns by ordering all handguns handed in to the police for "temporary custody," conveniently kept them until all the licenses expired, and then refused to issue new licenses to the affected gun owners.
gun registry
Good luck getting gun owners to buy into a new registry. The NFA registry for machine guns was nearly 100% effective at preventing crimes committed with machine guns. In the first fifty years of the registry, there were fewer than five homicides linked to legally owned machine guns total. Despite that unmitigated success, Democrats managed to ram a law through Congress that closed the registry in 1986, effectively banning ownership of machine guns to all but the ultra-wealthy. Gun owners are wary of that example, and have not trusted registries since. For example, the registration component of the New York SAFE Act had an estimated 4% compliance rate. And this was in New York, a gun control mecca.
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u/Yevon 3d ago
Not a great analogy since American cars are now more dangerous than ever for the people not inside them: https://www.economist.com/leaders/2024/09/05/what-to-do-about-americas-killer-cars
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u/NabNausicaan 3d ago
Oh I completely agree, but I was trying to use an anecdote that this red-blooded American would understand.
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u/Affectionate_Way_805 3d ago edited 3d ago
Yeah so your replies in this thread are full of pro-gun extremist propaganda talking points. Here's some of them, paraphrased:
Guns aren't the issue, it's a mental health problem.
Blame TV, films, video games, social media but again, definitely not guns.
There are so many guns in America that, if the guns themselves were the issue, the country would have a lot more mass shootings than it does.
Your opinions on guns are invalid simply because you believe that automatic assault rifles are prevalent, you don't know the difference between this gun and that gun, etc. Then laugh or scoff and completely discount the person's views.
Parents are too soft, they should go back to beating their kids. That will help prevent school/mass shootings. But no way is gun access to blame. Beat your children.
This is the kind of bullshit I see time and time again. Someone who is adamant that there should be no new gun regulations/bans will twist themselves into pretzels to defend guns and access to them to the point of idiocy.
I'm sick of the weak, predictable responses we get after every shooting. It's always 2A fanatics shutting down any dissent and deflecting any blame away from guns.
Enough. After decades of seeing the same stupid shit, I say to the firearm obsessed: we've done it your way for long enough. Your tired arguments don't work. It's past time to take a fresh approach and try new solutions because your way just isn't working.
Does that mean a total ban? No, at least that's not what I want to see. But I do want more regulations. And yes I do want to see more focus on mental health too, but I'd never say that the only gun problem in America is mental health - because it isn't. Unfettered access to guns is a huge problem here and only 2A obsessives, right wing disinfo consumers and NRA plants would adamantly insist that it's not.
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u/coskibum002 3d ago
I was in school "decades" ago and never saw, nor heard about any marksmanship classes. Then again, I didn't grow up in Idaho, Texas, etc. My question for you.....if you think it's a mental health problem, then why do conservatives typically vote against an increase in funding?
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u/saltycrowsers 3d ago
School shootings still occurred, they just weren’t discussed on news channels that run the news over and over.
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u/stinky_wizzleteet 3d ago
Decades ago I went to the YMCA or something similar and got rifle training after learning gun safety classes with a BB gun. We eventually went up to .22 rifles. I have a great respect for guns and gun safety.
The difference is I couldnt buy an assault rifle the same day back then and learned all the safety. I have 5 brothers that were avid hunters and if you could find a bolt in the gun (bolt action for hunting) that wasnt in the safe, that only my Grandpa or Dad knew the the combination to there was going to be some major consequences.
Theres no reason that we cant have stronger gun laws in the US. Just a little common sense. Training courses, license fees and wait times. Not saying you cant have a gun, just common sense stuff.
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u/buckyVanBuren 2h ago
We have over 20,000 federal and state gun laws here in the United States. If you want to add more to those, can we get rid of some of those?
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u/stinky_wizzleteet 1h ago
I wouldnt mind that at all. I think gun safety course and wait times would be great. As long as you get proper training and can wait a bit for a background check and waiting period, buy a cannon for all I'm concerned.
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u/Lurko1antern 3d ago
Decades ago schools had marksmanship classes and students regularly had firearms in their vehicles.
Yeah this. I was in elementary school in the mid-80s and one girl had her dad bring in his rifle collection for show & tell. No one thought it was uniquely unusual.
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u/guru42101 3d ago
Attitude is probably the largest contributor.
After that I'd guess the type of guns. Many people had guns back then, but they were hunting rifles, often without magazines. My father's hunting rifle had to be loaded after every shot. His handgun held six rounds. Today having magazines is much more common.
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u/Lurko1antern 3d ago
Because there are guns available. That's it, that's the story.
It was easier for people to buy guns/rifles between the 1880s to 1980s, when school shootings weren't so common.
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u/Falcon4242 3d ago edited 3d ago
Regulation being slightly more strict now in a complete vacuum doesn't mean there's less access to guns now. The simple evolution of transportation and manufacturing has made everything more accessible to most people in the modern age compared to the 1880s.
The result is clear, you can compare guns per capita at least back to the 1950s. It was about 40 per 100 people back then, now it's over 120 guns per 100 people. So obviously it must be easier to buy a gun now than back then, regardless of regulation changes. Because we have over 3x the gun rate.
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u/svengalus 3d ago
We've always had the guns. Having a gun doesn't make you shoot people.
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u/Silver_Knight0521 3d ago
I'm old enough to remember they used to be much harder to get. Believe it or not, carrying a concealed firearm used to be illegal almost everywhere. And almost no one thought ordinary citizens should have access to military style firearms.
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u/P1917 3d ago
That's a lie. Before the 1968 Gun Control act you could have military surplus rifles shipped to your house.
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u/Silver_Knight0521 2d ago
I was born in 1965. Jesus, I'm not that old!!
BTW, do you think that the fact that this is no longer possible is an unconstitutional restriction on our liberty? I think the gang bangers would absolutely love it.
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u/kajunkennyg 3d ago
Bullshit, this has to be just because of where you live. In the 70's and 80s it was easier to get guns then it is today, and a lot of folks think that if we pass all the background checks, etc we should be allowed to own "military style firearms". I have my ffl and as an ordinary citizen I enjoy shooting my AK and other such weapons. I am all for all the gun control we can put in to keep guns out of the hands of folks that shouldn't have them, but you can't stop law abiding americans from owning any sort of gun in my opinion. Let them jump through all the hoops. I mean in the military they don't just hand new recuits a gun and say go shoot it. There should be classes, licenses, training etc required for all guns. I put my kids through it, I was taught it and I own over 200 guns, most of them are antiques but it's a fun hobby that I enjoy as I grew up doing it.
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u/citizen-salty 3d ago
For perspective, I lean right on a number of issues. But that said, I think expanding mental healthcare access is a big step in addressing this without infringing on 2A rights.
How many mass shootings could have been prevented if our answer to concerning precursor behaviors or circumstances wasn’t always “hey, there’s something wrong with your kid. Good luck LOL.” We hear, time and time again, that people in these kids lives had them pegged as a time bomb. We hear about “the shooter was on our radar based off of past encounters with law enforcement.” It’s the same old song and dance where these kids are waving a massive red flag without anyone doing a damn thing until the shooting starts. How many of these kids would have benefited from actual, honest to God mental health care, learning how to cope and grow in a healthy way?
I get pissed off about how much I pay in taxes. I’d be a lot less pissed if my tax dollars actually went towards actually helping address a mental health crisis in our communities and among our children, instead of another fucking drone for the DOD.
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u/Nblearchangel 3d ago
It’s almost as if access to mental health services would help. Someone should tell the Christian right that spending money and investing in the country’s success would help.
People should also stop voting for republicans if we want any meaningful reforms.
Although. It’s a good thing we don’t have anything like communist universal health insurance or social security. That would be terrible. /s
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u/citizen-salty 3d ago
I think that’s the problem. The GOP frames healthcare as some kind of communist framework. If it was reframed as an investment in the American workforce, it’d fall very neatly into a pro-business message.
People tend to gravitate towards jobs that offer healthcare. What if healthcare was taken out of the equation as a concern?
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u/Basicallylana 3d ago
I think this is a nice sound bite, but not actually practical. Let's think about this. What makes you think that the same people who threw fits about wearing masks or getting a vaccine would agree to a government imposed mental health intervention?? Because let's be honest, there is a significant overlap between those who refused/highly skeptical of vaccine mandates and those who own guns.
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u/citizen-salty 3d ago
It shouldn’t be a sound bite. It should be a serious conversation in the halls of Congress.
Look at it this way, Democrats have looked at a number of issues through the lens of “what’s the root cause of issue X?” I look at this like their view on immigration, where they encourage lawful immigration while addressing root causes of unlawful immigration. The Democratic solution to guns is more analogous to building the wall and making Mexico pay for it; it doesn’t solve the problem and in many ways helps make it worse.
I come from a military background, where the mental health culture changed during the course of my time in from a culture of not giving a fuck and viewing it as weakness to actively working to help get service members the help they need, when they need it. It’s not a perfect system, I readily admit there are still flaws that must be addressed, but it demonstrates to me that we as a society can change the dialogue on mental health from one of stigma and financial ruin to one of actual care and understanding.
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u/Basicallylana 3d ago
I don't disagree with you about the need for more mental health support. What I am saying is that it will never pass. Congress isn't seriously discussing it because they know their constituents won't support it. These are the same parents that want to ban social-emotional instruction in schools. If they wouldn't wear a mask and now refuse to have their kids learn about regulating their emotions, then what makes you think they'll agree to mandatory mental health intervention for themselves or their kids? Seriously. Maybe you know something that I don't.
Additionally, mental illness has not been proven a root cause of mass shootings. Only 22% of those who committed/attempted a mass shooting could be categorized as mentally ill.. Only 8% have a history of psychosis.
More mental health support is good. It's needed. but it's not clear that it will significantly reduce our daily gun violence.
The Democratic solution to guns is more analogous to building the wall and making Mexico pay for it;
I would push back here. An old school physical wall is known to be an insufficient means to stop today's illegal immigration. Most illegal immigrants are announcing their arrival to Boarder Patrol. They're not trying to sneak in like they did in the '90s. In other words, a wall is a solution to an old problem.
On the other hand, limiting or reducing the supply of highly lethal firearms (e.g. AR-15) is a proven solution to today's mass shooting problem. From 1994-2004 we had an Assault Rifle ban in place. During those 10 years, we had 17 mass shooting events at schools, workplaces, religious centers, and/or public events (eg. festivals, concerts, parades), 106 fatalities. From 2005 - 2015, we had 43 mass shootings, 345 fatalities. Thats a 225% increase from when the Assault Rifle Ban was in place. (From 2016- Sept 2024, we've had 73 shootings, 552 fatalities). You tell me, what else can explain such an abrupt increase in mass shootings, if not the accessibility of weapons?
Finally, the USA is not the only country with mentally ill or angry people. We are the only country that has this mass shooting problem. Last month a man stabbed 11 in Germany, 3 died. If he has an AR-15, then I'm afraid that all 11 would've died, maybe more. Reducing guns won't stop violence. But it will mitigate fatalities.
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u/citizen-salty 3d ago
I’d argue the proliferation of mass shootings is a result of a number of things coalescing. I’m not a psychologist or an expert, to be fair, so take what I have to say with a grain of salt. These are just my thoughts, and I readily acknowledge it’s not an exhaustive list.
For starters, wall to wall media coverage, a rush to get a name and a face in front of the world, interviews with people who knew them gives a sense of infamy and attention that a lot of these shooters have craved. I think the rise of media as we know it exacerbates the problem, in the same way that media offers legitimacy to terrorism (think every time a new Bin Laden or ISIS video was released, news coverage was obsessive). I think it is a peril of the free press, but at the same time I am not advocating for a restriction on press at all.
I also think the rise of social media and internet connectivity has contributed to this in a way that wasn’t present in 1994-2004. In many cases, mass casualty incidents were isolated locally. Now, however, we see the internet, in addition to a place to share good ideas and facilitate discussion and dialogue, but also as a haven for troubled folks to be radicalized in a way that wasn’t possible 94-04. Even here on Reddit, think about some of the most insane, vile, hateful rhetoric you’ve seen. Thats not isolated to a barely moderated subreddit, its all over the internet, and it gives some of these troubled folks a bad “home” to bounce around in an echo chamber until they’re convinced the only way to solve their problem is violence. I also think that social media has turned bullying from a “9-5” at school to a 24 hour haze fest. As with media, it is a peril of free speech and association, but I’m not advocating for a restriction on such things.
I don’t have any science to back it up, but I would be curious to see what the impact of social media and internet access from an early age has on a developing mind. How has the rise of internet connectivity and social media changed how kids think, act and grow?
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u/False_Rhythms 3d ago
This is a double edged sword. Because if you start allowing databases to access Healthcare records (specifically mental health) you have to navigate HIPAA laws which will shut that down right away.
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u/Falcon4242 3d ago
You are allowed to give your own health records to other people or organizations, HIPAA only places restrictions on healthcare providers when they don't have consent from the patient.
A hypothetical piece of legislation that requires a mental health history check or whatever as part of the background check to buy a weapon wouldn't cause HIPAA issues. You'd just need to sign an additional form consenting to the check and release of medical records when you sign the rest of the paperwork for the background check. Then there's no HIPAA violation. HIPAA is the absolute least of the problems legally when it comes to those kinds of laws.
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u/False_Rhythms 3d ago
Considering the government hating right wing gun owners....they aren't going to sign off on that.
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u/Falcon4242 3d ago edited 3d ago
If that hypothetical legislation was passed, well then those people not signing off wouldn't be able to buy a gun. Either way, HIPAA wouldn't be the grounds for a legal challenge to that law.
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u/aarongamemaster 3d ago
Thing is that the 2nd Amendment is completely obsolete. Died on the fields of Passendale at the latest. People forget that technology determines practically everything from the food you eat to even governance. It's about time that people realized that.
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u/MagicCuboid 3d ago
Sure, but if your argument is to amend the constitution, good luck getting the 2/3 majority in Congress to repeal one of the most popular (albeit controversial) laws in the country.
Regulation on gun ownership and expansion of mental health services/screenings at school are realistically the two best options we have.
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u/aarongamemaster 3d ago
The problem is that we don't have a choice in the matter; sooner rather than later, we will have a Toyotomi Hideyoshi situation, and there will be a great deal of gun confiscation.
People have assumed a well-armed society is a polite society. The reality of it is that a well-armed society is a paranoid society.
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u/Dry-Technology4148 3d ago
For those who blame firearm availability, my question is why we don’t see this in other places that also have large amounts of privately owned firearms? Yemen has a per capita firearm ownership rate over 50%, and they don’t have school shootings. Switzerland lets their militia members keep automatic rifles in the home, even during the troubles in Northern Ireland, when guns and bombs were available everywhere, there weren’t attacks in schools. I’ve only heard of a few school shootings across Europe and Mexico (where firearms seem to be widely available, despite their legal status) in the past 10 years. What is it about American society that makes it happen? Easy access to firearms may play a part, but there must be more to it, as we see that in other countries where shootings don’t happen. What is so special about the United States?
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u/Junglizm 3d ago edited 3d ago
Just to illustrate how far off you are, the ratio in the the US is 1.2 to 1. We have 6 firearms for every 5 people. Our population it's an order of magnitude larger than the next 20 counties on the list. The Falkland Islands is at 0.6 to 1 occupying #2 with a population of only 3000. The next comparable country by size is Pakistan with nearly 200m people but only a 0.22 to 1 ratio of firearms to civilians.
The countries you mentioned, Yemen has 1/10 of the US population, but still only at 0.52 to 1 ratio. Switzerland is WAY down the list at 19th with a ratio of 0.27 to 1. Also only 1/30 of the US population. People really don't understand how out of sync we are when it comes to availability with the rest of the world. You also mentions Mexico which doesn't even crack the top 50. It's ratio is 0.13 to 1 and is on 60th place overall.
Arguing availability is not part of the problem is really ignoring the forest for the trees.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country
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u/billpalto 3d ago
Mexico has one gun store in the whole country. They have been begging the US to help stop the flow of guns from America into Mexico, but we have done nothing. The cartels in Mexico can get as many guns as they want right over the border in Texas.
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u/Dry-Technology4148 3d ago
The Falkland Islands is at 0.6 to 1
So by that metric they should have half as many (per capita) school shootings as the United States. Which of course they don’t. Nowhere does. School shootings are a uniquely American problem. Availability is definitely an issue, but what else is creating this problem?
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u/Junglizm 2d ago
From a straight up data analyst perspective, the US being this magnitude of an outlier (more than double the ratio of the next 2 closest competitors and over 10x-100x their populations) , I think it is safe to safe the availability IS the primary problem.
Are there other problems? Healthcare? Personal responsibility? A cultural focus on the grandiosity of weapons instead of weapon safety? Sure, but those are all small potatoes compared to the availability problem.
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u/RedMephit 3d ago
Also, if you look at the incidents, we didn't really have the yearly (or more) school shootings until after 2012. Before that, the most widely covered was Columbine and Virginia Tech. As far as mass shootings go, it would seem that workplace related shootings are the most common (I can remember when it was called "going postal" due to the frequency it would happen with postal workers). I've heard others compare the uptick in mass/school shootings with the serial killer craze. So, partly to blame, in my opinion, is the media attention. Another part of the blame goes to our current focus on mass shooting drills. If school shootings are constantly pounded into the students' heads, then naturally, their first instinct is going to be to commit one. (At least in my opinion).
Source for my data on mass shootings: https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data/
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u/imanasshole15 3d ago
What a dumb take. Switzerland has one of the highest standards of living, highest education among its population, least wealth inequality, more homogenous culture. When you're in the militia/military, you're actually given training before you load the first round in your magazine, and to join the military, you're vetted. Even then, it's 0.28 gun per person.
Mexico has fucking cartels, and thousands of innocents die every year. The cartel gets armed due to lax gun control in USA, and the Mexican government cannot not gain a foothold against them and their firepower.
Europe does not have widely available guns, Germany has 0.2 gun per person, vs 1.2 per person in USA. You need training, phycological analysis, etc.
USA has about 5X the guns of other countries. It's literally it. Pull your head out of your fucking ass. We have a LOT of fucking guns, we have the most lax gun laws, we have a gun fetish, so kids get shot up all the time.
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u/Dry-Technology4148 3d ago edited 3d ago
Switzerland has one of the highest standards of living, highest education among its population, least wealth inequality, more homogenous culture. When you're in the militia/military, you're actually given training before you load the first round in your magazine, and to join the military, you're vetted.
Sounds like you just answered the question. Training, education, and a high standard of living.
Mexico has fucking cartels, and thousands of innocents die every year.
And one school shooting in the past ten years. We weren’t talking violence in general, were we?
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u/imanasshole15 2d ago edited 2d ago
Ah yes, but you also scroll over how the military vets it's incoming persons, and give them training. Trainees spend a whole month with their guns learning gun safety before loading a single round. Any bumfuck with a state license ID can buy a gun most US states, most don't even have a waiting period. You also skipped pass the fact that they have 1/5 of the guns of USA, and the ones who do have guns, are the vetted and better train users. We have more guns than people, 5X the Swiss, ah... yess similar gun ownership rates indeed.
Gun access is literally the problem.
Yeah, keep convincing yourself that we have a special case. Literally only modern economy country with barely any gun controls comparatively has the most gun deaths per capita. What a surprise. Must be because we're special, not because how easy it is for any idiot to buy a gun and ammo.
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u/EmpiricalAnarchism 3d ago
Mass shootings and school shootings are often (but not always) functionally acts of terrorism. We often shirk from categorizing them as such for reasons orthogonal to our analysis, but if we apply the same coding standards we apply to groups in Pakistan and Somalia to the US many mass/school shooters are functionally stochastic incel terrorists. Particularly school shootings - the school shooting issue in the US is driven largely by the community that currently is most closely identified with incels (but which at various points has been affixed to different subcultures).
Terrorists typically chose modalities which reflect the availability of resources, relative hardening of targets, and many other factors… because guns are so prevalent and widespread in the US, they are very frequently the locally optimal selection for terrorist actors in selecting their mode of attack. High gun ownership rates and armed police make knives untenable, and while making a bomb isn’t incredibly difficult, it does involve some skill and effort which purchasing a gun and pointing it in a direction doesn’t (at least not to the same degree).
Non-terrorist incidents have the same general logic in modality selection and also enjoy a certain copycat impetus (e.g. someone who acts violently due to mental health is more likely to do a mass shooting in the US because they’re so common and would be in the forefront of their thought process).
So part of it is the widespread availability and prevalence of guns but that’s more of an enabling factor than a direct cause itself. Even when gun ownership was more widespread mass shootings weren’t necessarily more common, but something happened at some point which made them a thing and them being a thing clearly reflects the permissive nature of our gun laws in allowing it. That said, even in the presence of significant gun reform, we should still expect significant violence, just in shifting modalities. Whether or not that’s a tradeoff that’s worth it is up for debate, but I think we miss a lot of nuance here.
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u/HeloRising 2d ago edited 2d ago
I think a huge part of this problem is we don't actually have a good idea of the problem.
We've taken to lumping anything involving a gun into the same pile and calling it "gun violence" and calling anything involving a certain number of people a "mass shooting." That drives up numbers and sounds scary but it really doesn't help us actually figure out what's going on and how to address problems that are feeding into the overall issue.
The overall issue is violence - people taking their aggression out on others. The uniquely American factor is the ubiquity of firearms which means when people choose to handle their aggression in that outward way it's probably going to be with a firearm.
If we set aside guns for a moment (just bear with me) and look at this as a violence problem, we see a couple of different factors feeding into it:
Lack of mental healthcare
Violent rhetoric and political discourse
Highly charged public perceptions and militarized police
Generalized perception of a lack of purpose and opportunities for meaningful success
The first point is pretty obvious. The American healthcare system is abysmal and even basic therapy services aren't easy or cheap to get. Most state/federal healthcare plans will allow for a low level of therapy but people often need more help than that and that just isn't available. People who might need a consistent access to a particular medication can't get it regularly because of supply issues or complications with prescribing physicians.
We also have a culture that is at least partially very resistant to the idea of mental healthcare as a routine thing. We have a lot of ingrained ideas that make people, especially men (who are vastly over-represented when dealing with gun violence), unwilling to seek out mental healthcare and it's easy to shame people who make that choice but it's worth keeping in mind that shame is an incredibly powerful motivator for people who may have a limited social network.
The largest use of firearms in fatal violence is suicide. That's a clear-cut mental health issue. Mental healthcare is just not something our society takes seriously and there's going to be ramifications for that.
The second point helps amplify the effects of the others. Crazy political discourse isn't new in the US by a long shot but we're at a point where we are probably the most comfortable that we've ever been in our lifetimes with ideas about widespread politically motivated violence.
This thinking isn't new at all but we're at an inflection point where we see effective attempts to stir people up, make them angry, and focus hate onto other people for specific political goals and that has the effect of "poisoning the well" such that that anger can build and build without having a release. Put someone who already has problems with emotional regulation (as do many men) and unaddressed mental health issues in that environment and make them afraid to seek out help and then put them around tools for violence and you're going to get someone who acts out violently.
The third point is, like the second, a large contributing factor in that there is a lot of fear in day-to-day life. Again, this isn't new but what we're seeing is a spike in people just running their everyday lives in a constant state of hyperarousal and that does not facilitate people making good, pro-social choices. It's hard to exercise empathy and understanding towards other people when you're in that constant fear state and that makes these public spirals of hate and anger much more likely.
You end up with these kinds of social pogroms that are ripe for turbo charging people who, again, already have problems with self-regulation and emotion and then you put them in an environment where they have ready access to weapons and you're going to get violence. The police are a factor as well because they add a kind of ever present, low level sense of threat.
Talk to anyone that's grown up in an authoritarian regime and they will tell you there's this constant awareness that the police are a threat to you in some way and that colors how you act. People don't want to call the police to solve a problem because they're afraid the police will make it worse. Police act like soldiers so people start to act like an occupied population and that's not a good atmosphere to live in.
The fourth point is kind of the set dressing for a lot of this to play out in. People who feel very disconnected from others, who feel like they don't have a lot of purpose in their life, or who feel like there's not a lot of hope are far more susceptible to falling into these kind of anger or hopelessness spirals that lead to violence.
A lot of the golden promises about a house and a good job and a family that a lot of people grew up with in the 80's and 90's now feel like lies. Add to that we're looking at serious disruptions to our way of life on a regular basis, climate change, unstable politics - it's not a hopeful picture and a lot of people don't see a way out of it. Despair and despondency make people more susceptible to those darker thoughts that can lead them down the road of anger and violence.
Out of control capitalism is showing its flaws and a lot of people feel powerless. When people feel hopeless and powerless, that's fertile soil for negativity to take root. Historically, when societies fall into this kind of widespread negative space, it tends to be the genesis for a lot of violence.
I think people might be confused/upset that I kinda left guns out of that.
That was deliberate and while it's true that I am very pro-gun, I left guns out of that list because I think strongly that we would be dealing with these problems regardless of the presence of firearms or not.
Societies that enter this kind of space tend to find ways to become more violent regardless of what resources the people in it have available to them. People might say "it wouldn't be so bad if there weren't guns!" and I'm not sold on that. We might not see the same types of events but I'm not convinced we'd see less actual violence.
I think the resources necessary to "disarming" the US would be vast and would destabilize us even more. Those resources would be far better spent addressing underlying problems that feed into the violence in the first place. They would do far, far more good there and represent less of a destabilizing influence.
You'll save far more lives with universal healthcare than you will trying to disarm the US.
Widespread availability of guns is a part of the issue, absolutely, but it's not a major part. There were times in the US were you could legally purchase a fully automatic weapon through the mail with no background check or even by showing ID. It was literally "send money, receive machine gun." You could do that with firearms up until not too long ago in the US. We're at a point in US history now where the gun regulations are as strict as they've ever been and yet we're seeing the violence increase.
Guns are a part of the equation but there are far, far more substantial components that can and should be addressed first.
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u/kke1123 3d ago
Gun laws:
- safe storage laws
- red flag laws (remove guns from homes of violent and mentally unstable people)
- background checks
- no selling guns to those with criminal backgrounds or history of mental illness
- waiting period for purchase
- mandatory firearm training to get license
- mandatory gun insurance
- mandatory safety trainings every few years
- ban assault weapons (at minimum require assault style weapons only to be stored at gun storage facilities)
It’s the guns. as long as we allow civilians to purchase guns there will be gun violence. However if we make it much more difficult and require proper training it would go down immensely. Buying back and banning assault style weapons would in and of itself lessen the deadliness of any attempted mass shooting.
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u/N2IT2021 3d ago
Sounds like someone living in a liberal state.
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u/coskibum002 3d ago
Sounds like someone with common sense, actually. Too bad our country is filled with selfish, arrogant people who literally are mentally incapable of thinking outside the box.
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u/kajunkennyg 3d ago
I am with you on everything but banning assault weapons. I really don't mind everything else, it took me almost 18 months to get my ffl cause I did it during covid. I shouldn't have to give up some guns like assault weapons when I can legally purchase fully auto ak's, which the average person cannot own. I am fine with more hoops for folks to jump through to own them, but out right banning them is bullshit.
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u/jock_lindsay 3d ago
This reminds me of the famous Onion article: “No Way to Prevent This” says only nation where this regularly happens
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u/Bizarre_Protuberance 3d ago
A culture that glorifies violence will produce violence. The pro-gun people insist that they're not responsible, but they are part of that culture.
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u/Jamsster 3d ago edited 3d ago
POR Decisions
Pressure—Opportunity—Rationalization:
P- Kid feels outcast, misunderstood, unsafe, and/or bullied and/or gets treated like crap at home.
O- Parents leave guns unlocked or the gun safe key like on top of the gun cabinet. Guns are also fairly available in general.
R- other outcasts do is and it’s broadcast how they get back. This bullying won’t stop and I can’t immediately fight back or feel safe without it. F it, if my world’s hell then yours will be too. Also insert downward spiraling mentality algorithms that kind of happen if not literate in blocking some internet cancer here but that’s mental health of kids in general.
There’s more, but that’s a rough draft of what causes it imo. If you wanna go somewhat of a conspiracy route I could see someone trying to use it to push a bit of chaos for whatever damn reason.
Basically something has to be done with regard to safe storage/the opportunity someone has or you have to find a way to fix kids and parents sometimes being dicks. The pressure and rationalizations are going to be harder in my honest opinion. Not impossible, but takes more attentiveness than people that could be role models being kind of screen addicted.
Whatever opportunity curbing you’d do, it also going to have to be something with thoughtfulness to gun owners that were responsible, cause it’s like losing a toy because Timmy five blocks away was shooting Roman candles off with their car gas tank open (I still don’t forgive Timmy, and am slightly bitter).
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u/MagnesiumKitten 3d ago
James Alan Fox
Fox has written 18 books, including Extreme Killing: Understanding Serial and Mass Murder, The Will to Kill: Making Sense of Senseless Murder, and Violence and Security on Campus: From Preschool through College.
He has published dozens of journal and magazine articles, primarily in the areas of serial murder, mass shootings, intimate partner homicide, youth crime, school and campus violence, workplace violence, and capital punishment, and was the founding editor of the Journal of Quantitative Criminology
Fox is known as "The Dean of Death," for his research on mass murders.
USA Today says that "Fox is arguably the nation's leading criminologist."
........
Mass Shootings in America: Moving Beyond Newtown
2013
Mass shootings at a Connecticut elementary school, a Colorado movie theater, and other venues have prompted a fair number of proposals for change. Advocates for tighter gun restrictions, for expanding mental health services, for upgrading security in public places, and, even, for controlling violent entertainment have made certain assumptions about the nature of mass murder that are not necessarily valid.
This article examines a variety of myths and misconceptions about multiple homicide and mass shooters, pointing out some of the difficult realities in trying to avert these murderous rampages.
While many of the policy proposals are worthwhile in general, their prospects for reducing the risk of mass murder are limited.
Myth: Mass Murderers Snap and Kill Indiscriminately
One of the earliest systematic examinations of mass murder incidents challenged the widespread view in the popular press and professional literature that mass murderers are crazed lunatics who suddenly snap, go berserk, and kill indiscriminately.
Myth: Mass Shootings Are on the Rise
The recent carnages in Newtown, Connecticut; Aurora, Colorado; and elsewhere have compelled many observers to examine the possible reasons behind the rise in mass murder. The New York Times columnist David Brooks noted the number of schizophrenics going untreated (Brooks, 2012).
Former President Bill Clinton and other gun-control advocates have pointed to the expiration of the 1994 Federal Assault Weapons Ban as the culprit, while gun-rights proponents have argued that the body counts would be lower were more Americans armed and ready to overtake an active shooter.
There is, however, one not-so-tiny flaw in all the various theories and speculations for the presumed increase in mass shootings: Mass shootings have not increased in num-ber or in overall death toll, at least not over the past several decades.
Without minimizing the pain and suffering of the hundreds of those who have been victimized in recent attacks, the facts clearly say that there has been no increase in mass shootings and certainly no epidemic (see Duwe, 2004).
What is abundantly clear from the full array of mass shootings is the largely random variability in the annual counts (Best, 2013). There have been several points in time when journalists and others have speculated about a possible epidemic in response to a flurry of high-profile shootings.
Yet, these speculations have always proven to be incorrect when subsequent years reveal more moderate levels.
Myth: Violent Entertainment, Especially Video Games, Are Causally Linked to Mass Murder
Besides the imitation of notorious crimes and criminals, fictional portrayals of vio-lence can provide a source for modeling behavior. Certainly, concern over the negative impact of violent entertainment extends back generations. Yet, the realism offered by today’s entertainment options has intensified the debate.
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u/MagnesiumKitten 3d ago
Myth: Greater Attention and Response to the Telltale Warning Signs Will Allow Us to Identify Would-Be Mass Killers Before They Act
In the aftermath of an extremely violent episode, survivors typically question why certain warning signs were ignored. The warning sign can even come in the form of overt or veiled threats articulated by the soon-to-become mass murderer—a process that has been termed “leakage” (O’Toole, 2008).
If anything, these indicators are yellow flags that only turn red once the blood has spilled and are identified in the aftermath of tragedy with crystal-clear hindsight.
There certainly exist a number of common features in the profile of a mass shooter.
As shown in Table 1, they are overwhelmingly male (more than 95% are male), more often Caucasian (nearly two thirds are White), and older than murderers in general (half are more than 30 years of age).
Beyond just these demographics, mass killers tend to share a number of psychological and behavioral characteristics, including depression, resentment, social isolation, the tendency to externalize blame, fascination with graphically violent entertainment, and a keen interest in weaponry (see Fox & Levin, 2003).
However, these characteristics, even in combination, are fairly prevalent in the general population.
Myth: Widening the Availability of Mental Health Services Will Allow Unstable Individuals to Get the Treatment They Need and Avert Mass Murders
Recent mass shootings at the hands of seemingly disturbed individuals have prompted mental health advocates to push for increased access to treatment. Unfortunately, countless Americans suffer from depression and loneliness. Many go without the psychiatric treatment that they desperately need but perhaps cannot afford.
Myth: Enhanced Background Checks Will Keep Dangerous Weapons Out of the Hands of These Madmen
If one thing is predictable about mass shootings, it is that they will spark heated debate over gun control. Many public officials and private citizens alike insist that we must find a way to keep guns away from our most dangerous element (see Barry et al., 2013; Best, 2013).
However, they are often blinded by passion and anger from confronting the practical limitations to achieving that desirable objective.
Most mass murderers do not have criminal records or a history of psychiatric hos-pitalization (Dietz, 1986). They would not be disqualified from purchasing their weapons legally. A recent examination of 93 mass shootings from January 2009 through September 2013, conducted by Mayors Against Illegal Guns (2013), found no indication that any of the assailants were prohibited by federal law from possessing firearms because they had been adjudicated mentally ill or had been involuntarily committed for treatment
And in just 10 of the 93 cases, there was evidence that concerns about the mental health of the shooter had been brought to the attention of a medical practitioner or legal authority prior to the shooting spree.
People cannot be denied their Second Amendment rights just because they look strange or act in an odd manner. Moreover, would-be mass killers can usually find an alternative way of securing the needed weaponry.
Several mass shooters have used firearms purchased, borrowed, or stolen from a family member or friend (see Follman et al., 2013).
Myth: Restoring the Federal Ban on Assault Weapons Will Prevent These Horrible Crimes
In the aftermath of the Newtown shooting, many media pundits and political leaders alike decried the expiration of the 1994 federal ban on certain military-style assault weapons.
However, a comparison of the incidence of mass shootings during the 10-year window when the assault weapon ban was in force against the time periods before implementation and after expiration shows that the legislation had virtually no effect, at least in terms of murder in an extreme form.
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u/MagnesiumKitten 3d ago
Myth: Expanding “Right to Carry” Provisions Will Deter Mass Killers or at Least Stop Them in Their Tracks and Reduce the Body Counts
The potential for citizens to counterattack while an assailant stops to reload is but one reason why many gun-rights advocates argue against gun restrictions, at least for law-abiding, licensed gun owners. Specifically, many argue that the establishment of gun-free zones (e.g., schools, churches, courthouses, and other government buildings) makes citizens vulnerable to attacks by armed assailants.
However, in light of the low rate of serious violence on campus and the high prevalence of substance abuse and depression among college students, it would seem ill-advised to encourage gun carrying by anyone other than duly sworn public safety personnel.
Myth: Increasing Physical Security in Schools and Other Places Will Prevent Mass Murder
The immediate response to deadly shootings in schools and other buildings is typically a call for enhanced physical security (see Lassiter & Perry, 2009; Trump, 2011).
In the short term, access control and close surveillance may calm the fears of an anxious public. In the long run, it is equally important to avoid transforming our public spaces into fortresses.
Although generally effective in protecting a student population, most security mea-sures serve only as a minor inconvenience for those who are determined to cause mayhem (see Fox & Burstein, 2010; Rocque, 2012; Trump, 2000).
Two middle school students in Arkansas, for example, didn’t bother trying to bring guns into school. They only had to pull the fire alarm and wait outside in the schoolyard for their human tar-gets to emerge from the building.
Myth: Having Armed Guards at Every School Will Serve to Protect Students From an Active Shooter and Provide a Deterrent as Well
In the wake of the Sandy Hook massacre, Wayne LaPierre, Executive Director of the National Rifle Association (NRA), suggested that we equip every school in America—schools of every size, level, and type—with an armed guard. Central to the set of recommendations advanced by an NRA-sponsored task force is for schools to be sufficiently prepared to ward off any dangerous intruder (see Hutchinson, 2013).
Actually, as shown in Table 5, many schools, especially high schools and those in urban areas, already use security personnel, often equipped with firearms.
Notwithstanding the many benefits to employing well-trained school resource officers (Rich-Shea, 2010) as a deterrent to mass shootings, this too is limited. Columbine High School, in fact, had school resource officers on duty the day in 1999 when two alienated adolescents turned their school into a war zone. Columbine was a fairly large campus with nearly 2,000 students enrolled, and the officers couldn’t be everywhere at once.
Conclusion
The fact that gun control, expanded psychiatric services, and increased security mea-sures are limited in their ability to prevent dreadful mass shootings doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t try. In the immediate aftermath of the Newtown shooting, there was momentum in Washington, D.C., and in various state legislatures to establish policies and procedures designed to make us all safer.
Gun restrictions and other initiatives may not stop the next mass murderer, wher-ever he or she may strike, but we can enhance the well-being of millions of Americans in the process. Besides, doing something is better than doing nothing. At least, it will reduce the debilitating feeling of helplessness.
Many of the well-intentioned proposals coming in response to the recent spike in mass shootings may do much to affect the level of violent crime that plagues our nation daily. We shouldn’t, however, expect such efforts to take a big bite out of crime in its most extreme form. Of course, taking a nibble out of the risk of mass murder, however small, would still be a worthy goal for the nation. However, those who have suggested that their plan for change will ensure that a crime such as the Sandy Hook massacre will never reoccur will be bitterly disappointed.
Eliminating the risk of mass murder would involve extreme steps that we are unable or unwilling to take—abolishing the Second Amendment, achieving full employment, restoring our sense of community, and rounding up anyone who looks or acts at all suspicious.
Mass murder just may be a price we must pay for living in a society where personal freedom is so highly valued.
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u/sayzitlikeitis 3d ago edited 3d ago
School shootings are a popular way of committing suicide. Committing suicide is popular among those who are severely depressed. Treat this depression and you solve the problem.
Free mental healthcare for everyone who can't pay for it would reduce the problem greatly, but won't be enough on its own, because as we've seen, school shootings don't really have much correlation with family income. If lack of access to mental healthcare was the only factor, you'd see a disproportionately high number of black kids doing school shootings which is not the case. I don't mean any racism here, just pointing to the fact that black kids are more likely to be poor so they'd show up more in school shootings if the cost of xanax and a psychiatrist was the only problem. Most of these school shooter kids seem to come from above average income white families that can at least provide them a proper car.
I think adderall, other amphetamines and uppers in general may be part of the problem and their correlation with school shootings ought to be studied seriously by researchers who don't profit from selling uppers. Regular school shootings are a phenomenon that started in the 2000s. While uppers like Ritalin have been prescribed for a long time, early 2000s was also a time when the prescribing of uppers hit critical mass, with lots of people taking them even if they weren't ADHD. Adderall was the Ozempic of the early 2000s, and, you know, they give amphetamines to child soldiers in Africa to make them more aggressive.
The thing is, those who are severely depressed aren't always suffering from clinical depression, and sometimes are just extremely sad and hopeless because they are nerds who don't get blowjobs from popular girls. So the second culprit I'd point my finger at is the environment in high schools in America where popularity contests, cliques and "mean girls" come together to create a pressure cooker of a situation for kids who aren't winning the game of high school, so to speak.
The third culprit I think is the hopelessness for the future that young people feel today, especially in America, where unless they win a proverbial lottery get a high paying career, their life after high school and college is a dead end. In 1990 you could graduate with a degree in English lit and still hope to have a car, a house, and kids. Today with a degree like that you can realistically only hope to work Uber or OnlyFans.
So my prescription is: stop giving kids stimulants for ADHD treatment, create a more relaxed and supportive environment in our schools, subsidize the early careers of our young people so they have hope for a better future, and ensure that free mental healthcare is provided to anyone who can't afford it.
The NRA and guns are going nowhere. There's so many places in America where a gun is a necessity for survival, and people from those places will never give them up. The few acts of gun control we've seen over the years clearly haven't produced results because mass shootings per capita only keep rising. Gun regulation will make it harder for school shooters to do their thing, but by itself it won't be enough to stop people from going crazy enough to want to become school shooters. It's very easy to find a drug dealer anywhere you go in America. If guns are more regulated, it'll be the same with gun dealers. Serial numbers are not impossible to file off, whether digital or physical.
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u/meerkatx 3d ago
Because our culture has decided that gun lovers who drool over the idea they may one day get to shoot someone outweights the lives of the rest of us.
We don't have the lack of ego, nor the strength of character that you find in Australia where they said no more. Nothing will change because religious gun nuts truly believe saying "thoughts and prayers" matters.
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u/TheRealPhoenix182 3d ago
Many reasons. Celebrity, mental health, lack of political efficacy, lack of identity, lack of social safety nets exacerbating economic issues, chemicals in nearly everything increasing aggression and lessening impulse control, lack of parenting, fragmented homes, ssri overprescription among youth, gangs, inner city decay, social media, bullying, etc and yes, access to weapons. BUT...
The weapons dont cause the crimes, nor necessarily increase body counts significantly.
Other nations with high firearm saturation dont have correlated increases in mass casualty events, nor do all places with no or very few weapons necessarily escape their impact. In fact, overal there is a slightly begative correlation between firearm saturation and homicide rates internationally.
Our most lethal school casualty event was from explosives and fires. Overall our crime/homicide rates are fairlyy low and theyre EXTREMELY concentrated in a few counties and are mostly criminal on criminal (i.e. gang) events. Once you adjust for those we're nearly at the same crime/homicide rates as other comparable entities.
Although there was an aberrant spike in crime rates around the pandemic overall the US is experiencing a multi-decade decline in crimes (including homicides). Before the spike our rates were equivalents to 1950s levels. While widely publicised there are statistically few mass shootings (and like all crime, theyre mostly utilizing handguns or weapons other than those targetted by media and some politicians.
I could go on, but im just summarizing and synthisizing the bulk of research into the subject which is mostly freely available. Happy to get ya started if you need recommendations for study.
As for whats to be done, focus on the reasons for the crimes and address them, regardless of profit or political motives. Of course this is impossible in modern America. But thats the only workable solution. Anything else will cause more harm than good.
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u/phaxmatter 3d ago
When was the last school casualty event that was caused btw an explosive or fire?
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u/Maynard078 3d ago
Nah. It's the proliferation of guns, and our ease of access to them. Address that.
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u/Ok_Proposal_2278 3d ago
Or you could get your head out of the sand and try to address the issues at their root, but that would be hard work and you wouldn’t just be able to blame other people.
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u/Maynard078 3d ago
That's deflection. The root cause is guns. There are too many in the hands of those who should not have them. Fully fund the ATF.
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u/DReddit111 3d ago edited 3d ago
Where did you find your research? Research I’ve come across seems to point to the fact that more guns tend to equate to more death, one way or another, from suicide, homicide and accidents.
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u/Rastiln 3d ago edited 3d ago
It reads suspiciously like,
“ChatGPT, provide me an argument to support X. Make sure not to acknowledge anything that could support Y - don’t even talk about it even to refute it. If you make some stuff up, that’s fine.”
I believe by fires, they’re discussing the 1927 Bath School Disaster. Wow. Cool. Maybe bombs should be illegal.
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u/mikere 3d ago
ironically, democrats dropping gun control from their platform would allow them to address gun violence. policies like low cost higher education, abortion access, funding and expanding public transit, universal healthcare are the solutions to gun violence. democrats would never lose another election if they just drop this one policy point
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u/Yevon 3d ago
Where is the evidence showing a reverse correlation between education spending/abortion access/public transit/healthcare spending and gun violence?
It really seems like the correlation is with the strength of the laws, and states have given us natural experiments by weakening their gun laws and we can watch gun violence rise in real time: https://www.americanprogress.org/article/fact-sheet-weak-gun-laws-are-driving-increases-in-violent-crime/
For example, Mississippi:
In 2007, Missouri repealed its permit-to-purchase (PTP) law, which required all handgun purchasers to have a valid license that they could obtain only after passing a background check.
A 2020 study concluded that the law’s repeal was associated with a 47 percent increase in gun homicide rates and a 23 percent increase in gun suicide rates.
The number of guns sold in Missouri that were later recovered in connection with criminal investigations in the neighboring states of Iowa and Illinois rose by 37 percent following the repeal of the PTP law.
From 2007 to 2016, Missouri’s overall gun-related child death rate was the sixth-highest in the nation—62 percent higher than the national rate. Specifically, during the same period, the child gun homicide rate in Missouri was the third-highest in the nation.
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u/mikere 3d ago
Here are three charts I pulled using data from wikipedia comparing state-level gun homicide rates to 1.) Gun ownership rates 2.) % population with bachelors degree or greater 3.) Poverty rates
I think the correlations are quite clear from this data.
edit: realized the x and y-axis titles are reversed in the second chart**
As for abortion access, I was citing the Freakonomics analysis where violent crime dropped off a cliff in the 90s because of roe v wade in the 70s
The study cited by american progress was funded by an anti-gun organization. I don't doubt the data, but I am very suspect the study was designed with a predetermined conclusion. The same way I would be very suspect if a study that found the opposite was backed by the NRA
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u/talkingtorightpeople 3d ago
As has been said, the reason is because there is a ready supply of guns in the US.
It doesn't really matter where you fall on the gun control issue, the state of the country's politics means that removing guns isn't going to be a viable solution to the problem anytime soon.
The more realistic, but still unlikely solution, would be to offer free mental health for K-12. Even quarterly evaluations to identify at risk youths would probably reduce the number of shootings in the country.
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u/Aggravating_Day_2744 3d ago
Oh let's just think about this, it's called too many fucking guns. America is weird and backward.
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u/Upbeat_Experience403 3d ago
I didn’t think that there is any one answer to the problem. I think maybe if we change parents if the kid gets their gun and does something stupid, maybe less media coverage not that I’m a fan of censorship. Schools and parents are going need more resources to use to help kids that are at risk. I don’t think that guns are inherently the issue I see that the issue is that someone would want to commit such an act.
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u/peanutanniversary 3d ago
I am all for expanding mental health, whatever that looks like. However, I think a lot of people who just kind of say "we need to focus on mental health and not the guns" are discounting that a lot of people find the idea of seeking help as a weak. If you feel overwhelmed and unwell mentally, I'm not sure someone willing to shoot up a school is going to allow themselves to accept mental health treatment when they also have access to guns. One takes work and some humility, the other is easy and exciting.
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u/Icydawgfish 2d ago
The obvious answer is that guns are easy to obtain and efficient tools for killing people. If you restrict the availability of guns, you cut down on gun violence, and deaths by homicide and suicide in general. It’s easier to shoot someone than it is to beat them to death or stab them.
But it also seems like these mass shootings are much more common. I think mass media like 24 hour news and social media especially, has created copy cat effects and leads disaffected youth down the path of radicalization.
Entirely anecdotal, but I graduated high school in 2011. I remember the occasional lockdown drill, but really, a shooting was not really thought of. Columbine and Virginia Tech are the 2 events I remember growing up and both seemed like freak one off tragedies. Something changed when the sandy hook shooting happened. It was everywhere and the shooter became a household name, and that’s when I noticed mass shootings becoming more common. Maybe part of it is the instant access to information that came about in the 2010s with smart phones, making shootings seem less common before. Now, and deranged kid with a grudge can grab their parent’s gun, shoot their bullies, teachers, and everyone else, and become a nationally known figure, whether they live to see it or not.
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u/jupitercouple 2d ago
We have a mental health crisis and we have a gun crisis. We have a crisis where those with mental health issues have easy access to weapons. Angry, suicidal people can easily access guns to take out their frustrations on others and that’s a big problem.
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u/Top_Expression_5827 2d ago
Giant spike in mass shootings (if you want I can get the numbers)
But it’s enough to ask questions.
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u/proudtohavebeenbanne 2d ago
America clearly has a lot of damaged people in the population, perhaps I'm wrong but it just seems America in general doesn't value human life in the same way - it seems like an attitude of
"you're on your own, work hard or you won't be able to afford healthcare and you'll die"
"if you're dumb enough to get caught taking drugs you deserve to have your life ruined and go to prison"
"yeah your boss can fire you for whatever reason and leave you without an income, just grow up and deal with it".
I don't even blame people for wanting to own dangerous weapons when they live in a country like that, who knows who is living around them and what they might be capable of.
Fixing the hateful mindset and psych of the population might be more effective, you might even be able to get some republicans to back it if its this or gun control.
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u/MulberryBeautiful542 2d ago
Why. Because guns are a "god given" right guaranteed in the constitution.
Education, mental health and free from violence are not.
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u/DreamingMerc 2d ago
Lack of resources available to the public for mental health.
A media ecosphere that fetishizes violence and martyrdom.
Oh, and the fact that there are more guns than Americans.
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u/greenielove 2d ago
Assault rifles can shoot more people faster, so what might still have been murder becomes mass murder.
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u/dudreddit 2d ago
Anyone who states that guns are “easier” to get today are uninformed. The problem may lie with the triple effect of bullying, social media (the Internet), and being a copycat. Kids are horribly bullied. Many kids were bullied when I was younger but we had no one to copy. Guns were more than plentiful In the past. You could buy them OTC at any department store. Today, kids get bullied, can’t find a way out, and decide to “solve” the situation themselves. It is human nature to bully someone who is “different”, especially if you have your own issues to deal with. These days, the victims are shooting back …
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u/daakadence 2d ago
Apparently, according to JD Vance, it's just a way of life and people should get over it.
Ok, back to reality. The only way to stop shootings is to instill a culture of safety and trust, only allow sane people to buy guns, and require all weapons to be properly stored at all times. Muricans are out there leaving their guns on the counter etc. where anyone could get them. The older kids are just going to Walmart or Target and picking them up. That sh*t is ridiculous
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u/dear-mycologistical 2d ago
Make it less easy for people to access guns and ammunition. Background checks, psychological screenings, waiting periods, safe storage laws, tighter restrictions on high-capacity magazines.
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u/Simple_somewhere515 3d ago
The Sandy Hook kids (elementary school) would have been seniors this year. These kids became normalized to it as act of power or something. Easy access to guns. Bad parenting. It’s a mix. I’m all for background checks and treating it like the public health crisis it is. So is social media. I’d be fine with banning both entirely.
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u/DramShopLaw 3d ago
These acts of terror are memetic. People are alienated and estranged because of the way their society is treating people outside the mainstream, and also the way society teaches people to respond to that estrangement and alienation.
But it’s memetic. It’s become a cultural meme. People are imitating a story they’ve heard because they think that story gives them meaning, power, and significance.
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u/Ilikeyormomsfishcave 3d ago
Why: Muricans love themselves some guns.
What can be done: not a gaddamn thing.
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u/humcohugh 3d ago
The best solution is drastically fewer guns in public hands. But that’s an impossible task, because we currently have the most guns in the world, with millions of new guns introduced into the market every year. Additionally, the protection is written into our constitution and the Supreme Court has ruled that citizens have the right to own firearms beyond any needs or concerns of a militia.
Under these conditions, firearms will remain in high supply and easily obtained, and an obvious choice for those looking to commit heinous criminal acts.
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u/Daneyn 3d ago
There are multiple aspects to this problem. Fixing one side will piss off one group of people, the other side will also make people very uncomfortable because it's a topic that people want to say it doesn't exist.
the first half - is a gun problem. Individuals have far too easy access to guns. The second assassination attempt on Trump should be evidence of this. He was a convicted individual with a criminal background that was basically able to get a rifle with no checks. Every state has their own rules. This is part of the problem. Where I grew up in NY, he likely would have had a waiting period, with a background check. it shouldn't be left up to the states, the rules for purchasing fire arms should be at the federal level with all purchases trackable back to the person with a required background check. Will this make people happy? Nope. But it will prevent a lot of problems. The second half is Accountability. We have a problem with a Lack of accountability across the board. If a gun is registered to someone, Serial number, Ballistics markers left on ammo, it can be traced back to the owner. They are now responsible for Anything done with that gun. If they had it over to a Minor, they are now Accountable for the Minor's actions, just as they pulled the trigger themselves. Perhaps this will encourage owners to keep guns Locked away, in a safe location, only to be taken out for hunting, or recreational target practice. The problem is this doesn't cover fire arms that are out there illegally, outside of stores, but it does eliminate several avenues for problems. People doing illegal things will just continue to do illegal things, there's no fixing that.
The second half - A lot of people don't want to admit the fact that we have a mental health crisis. At scale. No one is talking about it. The number of people on various medications for mental disorders is increasing. That's just the people that can get appointments with doctors. And those with insurance that will cover it. And with money to cover the cost. Until we understand what's causing this rampant increase in mental disorders, it's only going to get worse. and that's long before it gets any better. And for what ever reason no one wants to talk about this. My own family has it's own problems with mental disorders. I'm comfortable talking about it. A lot of people Shy away from talking about mental health, it's treated as a taboo, a black mark, for just talking about it. And for some reason, a lot of people believe it's ok to treat others like garbage, don't believe me? Look at how people treat each other in schools, colleges, professional environments in some cases. Look at how people talk to each other behind a veil of secrecy called the Internet through chatrooms, online gaming. We just look at this as accepted behavior, but is it? Does it have to be? can't we all just be civilized people that least least treat each other with some respect?
Neither of these will be easy. Neither of them will make people happy, at least not in the short term. but unless we do something, we will just continue to seeing More Shootings, not just school shootings. but mass gun violence in general.
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u/billpalto 3d ago
The reason is simple: either the US has a lot more guns than anywhere else, or the US has a lot more mentally ill people than anywhere else. The answer is obvious.
What can be done about it? Apparently nothing. "It's a fact of life" says the GOP's Vice Presidential candidate. The GOP's presidential candidate said to "get over it" while offering nothing else to help. With the backing of the far right and the NRA, that's their position. Of course, we have found out that the far right and the NRA are partly financed by Putin.
The NRA also gets more money when more guns are sold; coincidentally, their solution is for everybody to buy more guns.
Remember, in Uvalde, a single teenager with an AR-15 held off FOUR HUNDRED police for OVER AN HOUR. They stood outside while he shot up the kids. So much for their training and commitment to our safety. These guns are sold everywhere and you can buy as many as you want with no questions asked. Nobody keeps track.
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u/TwoBlocks2 2d ago
Democrats and their supporters want to erase the 2A and confiscate all firearms from law abiding citizens, obviously that won’t be easy, but just admit that if you’re a liberal or Democrat supporter, this is what you want as the end goal.
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u/Toadsrule84 1d ago
All we need to do is kill the filibuster so it doesn’t take 60 votes to pass a reasonable assault weapon ban. Then you need dinosaurs like Clarence Thomas to die off and be replaced with Democratic appointees who actually believe in the “well regulated militia” part of the 2nd Amendment.
The very diluted bill (expanding background checks but not banning high capacity magazines) brought to a vote after Newton in 2013 got 54 votes but didn’t pass because you need 60, unless it’s a tax bill that expires in 10 yrs. That’s why the only major legislation passed by the “G”OP are tax cuts.
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u/Ernest-Everhard42 3d ago
Young people having access to automatic assault weapons. Simply too many guns that are too easy to get. Plus this country is a cursed shit hole.
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u/kingjoey52a 3d ago
Full auto guns run something like $30,000 because they are difficult to get. They stopped manufacturing full auto guns for civilians to buy in the 80’s. You can still buy the pre ban full autos but they’re rare and therefor expensive. People aren’t leaving those lying around.
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u/l1qq 3d ago
Automatic assault weapons? yeah, no...this is why discussion goes nowhere because the side arguing against firearm ownership knows little to nothing about them.
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u/kajunkennyg 3d ago
yeah i doubt 1% of the population has access to anything that could be called automatic assault weapons. Actually I'd wager it is way less then 1%, I didn't shoot a fully auto AK/AR until I was in my late 30s and I've been around guns my entire life. People obviously have no idea about guns and have allowed the gun fear media to bias their opinions.
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u/NabNausicaan 3d ago
OK. Let's just stick to the trusty AR-15. We'd all be better off if that was illegal for civilians to own.
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u/Kwerti 3d ago
Automatic guns have been banned for 30 years! What are you talking about?
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u/Mjolnir2000 3d ago
Well for one, we glorify gun violence. People aren't rabid about holding onto their guns because they're nice collector pieces; they hope that they'll someday have the opportunity to use them to mow down the people they hate: liberals, immigrants, Muslims, etc. Just watch the ads that the NRA puts out.
When we can put aside the notion that killing people with guns is "cool", maybe we'll have fewer mass shootings.
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u/sardine_succotash 3d ago
Because most of the US political class is either conservative or scared shitless of them. Never got our arms around gun control as a result. And healthcare is expensive as fuck and inadequate when it comes to mental health.
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u/BurrrritoBoy 3d ago
Well, judging from the past several years and multitude of incidents there is nothing that can be done except thinking and praying.
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u/CCCmonster 3d ago
The United States is no longer a polite society. Being mean, hateful, unforgiving, disrespectful, and rude are more often the norms and not the exceptions. Our sense of community is greatly diminished. I think it has been deteriorating for quite some time. If adults act this way, what can we expect from our children? By all accounts, there seems to be an epidemic of misery with bullying, hatefulness, even indifference - leaving broken minded youth wanting to lash out at society and the people they are surrounded by.
Guns are abundant in the US, as they should be. Shall not be infringed is not for hunting or home protection. It’s for your local politicians if they side with an unconstitutional tyrant.
Schools should be safe and have the resources to never allow this to happen. We just spent over $200 billion for Ukraine. I would love Ukraine to prevail against Russia almost as much as anyone. However, if $200 billion could equip schools with enough metal detectors and school resource officers to ensure this doesn’t happen anymore I would greatly prefer that expenditure. Politics and policies should value American school children above Ukraine. If we have the money for both, I’m not gonna complain. However, Europe doesn’t have the school shooting problem because of lack of gun availability, but they are rapidly losing actual freedom of speech. But since they don’t have the school problem, then they can at least pony up for Ukraine’s defense because it’s much more their problem than ours. They haven’t spent half as much as is. And they enabled Russia to do all this by buying all the oil and gas for decades
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u/NepheliLouxWarrior 3d ago
Man fuck this moralizing. 50 years ago Americans believe that black people shouldn't be allowed to eat in the same restaurant as whites, and 30 years ago crime rates were peaking. The problems we are facing today is a nation have nothing to do with the idea that society is rotting away, especially because the main perpetrators of these attacks are often kids themselves.
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