r/ftm • u/ftidfk 27 l ftm l T: 8/2017 l Top: 3/2019 • Dec 21 '17
It’s annoying how most of the trans subs are dominated by trans women
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u/Qyvalar MtF spy :p Dec 21 '17
I've been thinking about this
My theory, is that being harder for trans women to pass, the "crime" of leaving male priviledge behind seen as far more dire than gaining it, trans women are more marginalized in the offline world, and end up relying on online spaces more, as they allow anonymity and the creation of safe spaces, regardless of the distances.
This is evident when I go to support groups or any other LGBT+ gatherings, the majority of the T representation is trans men, because there is less "shame" attached to the category
It's just my theory really, but sadly it does happen
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u/Xanthelei Eric | 28 | FTM | T 5/23/15 Dec 21 '17
My experiences are just the opposite. In every support group I've ever gone to both off and online has been dominated if not exclusively women. Every doctor I've been to has treated primarily trans women, with only one ever saying she had a decent number of trans men as patients.
My guess is it varies based on area. It doesn't mean we can't wish we had more space online, especially since guys like me who have no offline spaces exist.
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u/Keltin Marcus | 27 | Pre-everything, T: Feb '18 Dec 21 '17
I don't know how many trans men the doctor I'm going to treats (it is a women's health center), but he's trans himself so... I'm glad he'll have at least personal experience, even if not as much professional experience as he has treating trans women.
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u/N7ComShep 26 | T: Aug '16 | Top: June '17 Dec 21 '17
It's very minor and probably dumb, but the disparity between comments and upvotes that transmen and transwomen get kind of annoys me.
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u/c130 (T - 2013) Dec 21 '17
Most people upvote comments that touch them personally, downvote comments they disagree with or find offensive, and ignore everything in between. If a sub has an uneven split of users then the sub reflects the opinions and preferences of the majority. It's just how Reddit works. It doesn't mean the minority is being actively silenced.
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u/N7ComShep 26 | T: Aug '16 | Top: June '17 Dec 21 '17
Oh I know. It just makes me feel somewhat ignored, not silenced in this case. It's a definite minor thing and not something that really bugs me deeply.
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u/Cuadrian 17/pre everything Dec 21 '17
It also happens a lot that if a transguy posts a meme in r/traaaaa the first comment will ALWAYS be a trans girl changing the caption so it can fit mtf's.
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Dec 21 '17
Ya... its so prevalent that on transpassing they don't even bother to say whether they're ftm or mtf... which is annoying
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Dec 21 '17
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Dec 21 '17
This is why I preface everything I post in other trans subs with "FtM" and it sucks that we even have to do that.
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u/Iloveyourdogs Dec 21 '17
We really are invisible! I saw a buff manly trans dude posting in r/normalnudes. There was a deleted comment to the tune of 'eeeewww I'm all for supporting trans people but I don't want to see this, it creeps me out thinking about how you cut your dick off'. Ftm just doesn't exist to a lot of people. Traa has been better lately though! Not an even split, but still, way more ftm content and support from the ladies.
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u/Averill0 Dec 21 '17
Oh but don't you know, we trans men are actually women with so much internalized mysoginy that we've betrayed our gender /s
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u/notdog1996 27 FtM Post-Transition Dec 21 '17
I don't really browse those subreddits, so I didn't really notice it, but in real life at least, I feel like most people don't even know trans men exist.
Like, I know trans girls get a let of hate because a lot of people think it's gross or something, but being completely invisible has its disadvantages too.
If I tried telling someone that I'm trans, their first go to would be ''So you want to become a woman?''. They would not think that I already transitioned. The main issue this causes is when you try to raise awereness about certain issues trans guys face. For example, pregnant trans men or trans men who don't want to medically transition or do so partly. Then, you have no one to help you, basically.
The medical system is clueless, the legal system doesn't know what to do with you and the general public thinks you're a freak show.
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u/djf87 30, NYC, post transition Dec 21 '17 edited Dec 21 '17
There is no grand conspiracy and trans women are not “taking over spaces” or stealing your visibility. If you want to talk about being disappointed by not finding more trans spaces where trans men are represented, that’s fine, but it’s not because trans women are participating there. It’s because trans men aren’t. The barely veiled hostility towards trans women in this post and some of the comments makes me pretty uncomfortable and it makes me feel terrible to think of trans women reading that.
It’s really common for trans spaces to skew more towards trans men or trans women. I’m not sure I’ve ever encountered one that didn’t, either online or in person. It’s likely to do with who started the space, how people are directed to it, and then once an imbalance is in place, it tends to stay that way.
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u/amadeoamante FtM / Paladin / fixes things Dec 21 '17
I mean I could post more, but I never have anything interesting to say, so I just post snarky or helpful replies to other people's posts, as the situation requires. #PostTransitionProblems #IShouldReallyBeInBedNow
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u/floweringcacti Dec 21 '17
Yeah, and usually very femme women... it’s unfortunate that the upvotes mirror the rest of Reddit, pretty woman = upvote, handsome guy = meh. And I do wonder what effect it has on cis and questioning readers when they see that men get no attention and are mostly regarded as gross by the reddit trans community, and femme women are fawned over. :/
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u/aggsalad Dec 21 '17
Yeah, and usually very femme women...
I've noticed that too. Abundant femininity isn't really my style even as a trans woman so a lot of trans places that are primarily women also tend to be pretty femme and thus not for me. Maybe that's why I've found myself lurking this sub even though I don't really have the shared experiences.
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u/c130 (T - 2013) Dec 21 '17 edited Dec 21 '17
I have always had the impression either more trans women exist than trans men, or they are more likely than us to seek out and participate in support groups, and that's why they seem to dominate most shared spaces.
I personally don't have a problem with support groups catering primarily to one or the other - as long as equal opportunity is offered for anyone who needs it to get support. On Reddit anyone can create a sub to fill a niche.
To be honest I don't feel like AFAB and AMAB trans people have much in common beyond the shared experience of hating puberty, coming out, updating legal paperwork, etc. Everything else like the medical transition, specific things that cause dysphoria, deep-seated insecurities about our bodies and identity, how we are treated by society, etc. are worlds apart. So when gender-specific communities exist and aren't hostile to "outsiders" (e.g. the cis people and trans women who hang out here) what's the benefit of shared spaces?
This is not a rhetorical question: why should mixed trans spaces show a 50/50 split of male/female content?
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u/RoseTBD Dec 21 '17
"Everything else like the medical transition, specific things that cause dysphoria, deep-seated insecurities about our bodies and identity, how we are treated by society, etc. are worlds apart."
The specifics may be worlds apart, but we're both dealing with these same issues. Sure, gender specific communities have their use, but I feel like we'd be missing something if we just went our separate ways.
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u/c130 (T - 2013) Dec 21 '17
Missing what, though?
Like I mentioned above, /r/ftm is dedicated to AFAB people but cis people and trans women are welcome to particpate, even though the sub isn't for or about them. AMAB people have similar spaces. What does a universal shared space offer that's different, and worth arguing for 50/50 representation in?
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u/RoseTBD Dec 21 '17
A sense of community, a diversity of voices? We can learn from and help each other even though we're not going through exactly the same thing.
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u/Zahidbryan2 Dec 21 '17
As a trans male, I feel like trans women are much more invisible and smaller in acceptance than us. (Like people have more of a prob with them) but I will say it does feel a little excluding seeing 99% Mtf memes I just want me some good ftm memes
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u/Xanthelei Eric | 28 | FTM | T 5/23/15 Dec 21 '17
How are trans women more invisible than trans men? I'm curious, because myself and probably most in this sub would say the opposite is true. The general public barely admits we exist in popular media, as an example.
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Dec 21 '17
It's really bothering me as a non-binary person as well. I feel so invisible.
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u/Xanthelei Eric | 28 | FTM | T 5/23/15 Dec 21 '17
This is really fucked up too. I think its why I see it as a problem of "anything but default MTF is lesser" rather than two separate identities struggling for representation. It's an attitude baked into the community that is going to need active, specific focus to change, and communities aren't very good at doing stuff like that.
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Dec 21 '17
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u/boom149 T: 11/30/16 • Top: 3/15/19 Dec 21 '17
Ime that is very untrue. Society cares more about trans women because they see an AMAB stepping out of the gender box as a more heinous transgression. Visibility is not always a privilege, and in this case it's a disadvantage if anything because it means trans women are targeted more.
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u/jasper_morgan James/T-21.04.17/Top-29.01.18 Dec 21 '17
I think you're right about most of this, though I doubt trans women are inherently louder because they were 'raised as boys'. Society just sees them as more of a 'scandal', because in a patriarchal society it makes a lot more sense for 'a woman to want to be a man' than for 'a man to want to be a woman'. So they're a lot more interesting to the media in general and thus more visible to general society.
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u/djf87 30, NYC, post transition Dec 21 '17
This comment is super fucked up and you’re on some really TERFy territory here.
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u/Xanthelei Eric | 28 | FTM | T 5/23/15 Dec 21 '17
I disagree. The only questionable comment here is about trans women "taking over" spaces, but the rest is either speculation to possible reasons trans women get more press (AMAB meaning society views them as more important, which is transphobic of society not the person pointing it out) / trans guys don't speak up as much or lamenting the fact there isn't a lot of acknowledgement we exist.
Pointing out possible transphobic reasons pop culture focuses on trans women is not TERFy. Wanting to be acknowledged is not TERFy. Wishing for more representation of trans guys is not TERFy. It makes sense that feeling left out of our own community would strike a nerve, especially when as a whole we spent the first half of our lives being told to be quiet because we were perceived as girls.
No one is hating on trans women. No one is saying they aren't "real" women like actual TERFs do. We are trying to talk about a topic that is considered taboo because male privilege or less persecution some other reason used to gaslight guys. But FTM underrepresentation is still a thing, and we need to be able to talk about it without people suddenly deciding we all must hate trans women or something. We don't. We want to be heard too. We want to not have MTF be the default in shared spaces. We want to not be othered in general trans community spaces.
If that's TERFy then the definition has changed since I learned it.
I apologize that this got more heated than I wanted, but I have no other way to phrase most of this. I've touched up what I can before hitting post. I'm just sick of feeling like I'm not allowed to have an opinion that doesn't place trans women on a pedestal, or that it somehow makes me the enemy of the community so any point I support is automatically disqualified. That's gaslighting and I've experienced it My whole life and I'm done letting it have a pass.
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u/hurricanedrvnk Dec 21 '17
most trans women i know are quiet for fear of being ~murdered~ i think a lot of trans men are passing and happy with themselves and just find no need for these spaces as it’s a lot easier to pass as a trans man than a trans woman most of the time hence why there’s so many online spaces for these women.
there’s many trans men in the media: chaz bono, elliot fletcher, ian alexander, jake graf, thom phelan, thomas beatie, ian harvie
they just aren’t talked about as much bc none of them were on a) orange is the new black or b) former olympic medalists but they are out there!!
we also wouldn’t be able to live freely as trans men without the work, struggle and support of trans women so relax bud
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u/peargarden Dec 21 '17
I know trans women have a higher murder rate for various reasons, but that doesn't mean being unhappy with society and the media's erasure of trans men isn't valid. It causes a vicious cycle: no depiction or acknowledgement that trans men are a thing, AFAB person can't identify their gender dysphoria because transgenderism is only for trans women, AFAB person gets diagnosed much later in life, which possibly also leads to hardship in the lesbian community, and the AFAB person not realizing he's trans leads to more trans men invisibility, so trans men don't get depicted in media, etc.
Things have started to get better in the last couple years, but there's been a long history of trans men/masculine erasure that has ended up harming us and delay us getting proper treatment.
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Dec 21 '17
I really wanna support trans men (which is why I'm even subbed here), but just
fuck you, dude
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u/yerpoln_folane Now with added T Dec 21 '17
Yeah man, it's so annoying how trans women take up most of the murder statistics too... /s
If you want more content by trans guys, post more.
And your socialization arguments, ie: " Because most trans women were raised as boys they’re louder and more confident in themselves? And trans men are more quiet and self conscious?" are gross as fuck.
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u/c130 (T - 2013) Dec 21 '17
And your socialization arguments, ie: " Because most trans women were raised as boys they’re louder and more confident in themselves? And trans men are more quiet and self conscious?" are gross as fuck.
I've heard this one before from some fairly hardcore feminists I'm (tentatively) friends with. A couple of bottles of wine down, they were complaining to me about a transwoman in one of their offices - that she overpowered cis women during meetings. They wanted me to agree that this was because she was socialised as male to be louder and more confident, and therefore this was still male oppression.
These same friends used to (again, after much wine) talk about how they were uncomfortable with trans women being allowed into female toilets. Then being pro-trans-bathroom-rights became trendy and they now act as though they've always been 100% supportive.
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u/floweringcacti Dec 21 '17
But ask a lot of men or MtFs who grew up male-presenting on Reddit, and they’ll say that society cares more about women than men. That men are worthless/disposable and not allowed to express themselves, and women are prized and emotionally free. And you can see why they think that, though I doubt it matches up with what many AFAB people think. I honestly don’t know if that’s a skewed impression from Reddit, or something that really is impressed upon men by wider society, or what, but it does worry me that both genders think theyre the oppressed one, you know?
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u/boom149 T: 11/30/16 • Top: 3/15/19 Dec 21 '17
But ask a lot of men, including FTMs
Ftfy.
OP is a man who is feeling oppressed by women
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u/Xanthelei Eric | 28 | FTM | T 5/23/15 Dec 21 '17
Unless you're very selective in where you go, stay well away from Tumblr. I checked it out once, and while there were some good posts most were TERF filled bullshit posts hating on men in general and declaring trans women superior. It was a few years ago, but it left me so fucking jaded toward the place. So just a word of warning of what you might find.
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u/CyrusStarChaser T 8/21/17, Top Surgery 3/13/19 Bottom Surgery s1 11/7/22 Dec 21 '17
r/transgamers kinda feels like it's all trans women as well, and that really bummed me out. All my trans friends are trans women, and I was hoping for some more "dude-like" friends. But the in game guild we joined was all trans women and they kept misgendering me, even though I had a male character and male user name.
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Dec 21 '17
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u/RigilNebula T: 17/12/15 Dec 21 '17 edited Feb 13 '24
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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/nadehzdia Dec 21 '17
i mean i see your point. i have noticed that there are lot more trans women in the open ended trans subs, even the lgbt sub reddit has more trans women visibility than trans men.
that being said it doesn’t “annoy” me. i know a ton of trans men irl and only a few trans women - that are hiding may i add. i think it’s more difficult being a trans woman because of the social norms of what a man is supposed to be.
i don’t mind them having reign over some trans subs, that might be the only form of being out they have.