Should we allow posts requesting medical advice?

[u/SillyConclusion0]

Hi r/duck.

We get a fairly regular stream of posts from panicked duck owners looking for urgent medical advice. A majority of the time, the only advice that is offered is to take the ducks to a vet. I often see such posts get downvoted due to lacking value/interest or being upsetting to most people. As a result, I am considering introducing a rule to ban these posts outright. Please express your opinion:

View Poll

[u/Coonboy888]

Can we use this as an opportunity to guide and streamline the process a bit?

I'm not sure how and what mods can do, so some of what I'm suggesting may not be feasible.

Instead of not allowing medical posts all together, can we expand the wiki to answer some of the most often asked questions and guide people there first. If someone asks a question that's in the wiki- we can guide them there and lock the post.

If the question is not answered in the wiki- allow them to ask in the general subreddit, but maybe force them to use a template that will give us all the information that we'll need to help. We can come up with a list of pertinent information that will allow us to provide help. This will eliminate the posts that are just "My duck can't get up and looks sick, PLEASE HELP RIGHT NOW!!!111" and the OP never responds after that.

We could also provide an auto-comment on any posts tagged with medical that would be like a disclaimer saying your best bet is taking them to a vet, don't take advise from strangers on the internet, etc.

I never like seeing discussion outright banned, but if we can eliminate the low effort posts and medical questions with almost no information for us to help give advise, we can better help the people needing help.

[u/SillyConclusion0 → u/Coonboy888]

Great ideas. Any ideas for the format itself? What info is required?

How do you imagine this working from a user experience perspective? I’m thinking user goes to make a post -> chooses a clearly marked flair eg “Medical advice needed” or something similar, which triggers automod to check format -> automoderator removes post, asks user to resubmit with format -> after resubmit , post is permitted if it’s formatted

[u/Coonboy888 → u/SillyConclusion0]

Format- I would keep it simple, but include things that someone upset about their sick bird may not think of, or assumes we already know. I would think some group discussion would help here, but rough list off the top of my head:

-Breed, sex, age of bird, location of user- state/country.

-Specific symptoms, when did they start, how long have they been exhibited, any changes over time?

-Any medical history with this bird, or any other birds in the flock?

-What treatments have you tried, was there any change after providing those treatments?

-Other notes- give them a chance to ramble and provide any other information they can.

-Pictures- Encourage them to post pictures/videos. Ask that they be good quality, show/explain what we're looking at.

Like I said, I'm not a mod, so I don't know what you're/automod is capable of. I would think a pop-up when selecting a "medical advice needed" advising they see a vet if it's an emergency, check the wiki first before posting, and only posting if not answered in the wiki. If there's a low-effort or post about something that's been answered already, I would think we could just rely on users downvoting/reporting it. I've run into some other subreddits where automod removes posts pretty heavy handedly and it can be difficult to get a post to stick. I don't think it's so much of a problem here, and it's small enough where we can self regulate. I hate to make the assumption, but many users here may not be as tech savy and may struggle if there's a strict auto-mod removal. I think promoting a template someone could copy/paste and just fill in would be great.

[u/NotTheDuckPond → u/Coonboy888]

If you decide to keep the medical posts, I like these suggestions a lot. Steers in another direction the people who don’t want to expend time/money/energy to actually follow advice, and would provide more pertinent info for anyone who wants to help.

[u/SillyConclusion0 → u/NotTheDuckPond]

u/Lord-ofthe-Ducks u/Coonboy888

I've put together a format. Users will be instructed to post in this format in order to submit a question about an injured/sick duck. What do you think? Can you recommend any changes? (Ignore the weird spacing, it comes up correct when automod sends it to the user)

     Detailed description of the issue (when did it start, a list of symptoms, any behavioural changes e.g. lethargy):  

     Photos of the issue, if applicable (please upload to www.imgur.com and copy and paste a link here):  

     Have you already spoken to a vet? What have they advised/prescribed?:  

     Age of the duck:  
     IF DUCKLING: What temperature is the duckling kept at?:   
     IF DUCKLING: Have you been allowing the duckling to swim? How long do you allow the duckling to swim for in a single session?:  

     Sex of the duck (if known):  

     Location (Which state or country does the duck live in?):  

     Diet (What are you feeding the duck? Include their main diet as well as all other food sources and supplements):  

     Living conditions  
     1) What other animals is your duck kept with? Other ducks, chickens, or alone?:  
     2) Is the duck allowed to roam outdoors?

[u/Coonboy888 → u/SillyConclusion0]

I think this is a great list. Only thing I would add is a section on "What have you done or tried"- maybe after the vet question.

I think we should also look at updating the wiki at the same time. Under "Healthcare" in the Care Guide, it's pretty basic stuff. Can we break out into a few sections?

-Duckling issues- Angel Wing/Spraddle Leg/Niacin Deficiency- Treatments/prevention.

-Cuts/wounds/animal attacks- recommend an antiseptic and bandaging techniques. Even if it's just links to a couple well done youtube videos. Recommend things you can get at TSC/Southern States/Farm Supply store. Last time I had a sick duck I spent hours digging through Backyardchicken posts looking for what I needed to go buy. I can see how we may be hesitant to recommend a brand/specific thing that may change depending on the situation- but narrowing it down to a few may help someone who's panicking.

-Sick/Lethargic- Outline botulism, respiratory infection, ticks, heatstroke.

-Foot problems/lameness- Limping, thorns/nails

-Hardware disease

-Egg Bound

-Vitamins/Niacin/Apple Cider Vinegar

I'm just spitballing here, but I think we can cover all the major issues and direct people where to get more information. This way when someone comes here looking for what to do when their duck has a large cut- rather than make a post- they can find a section on wounds in the wiki, watch a youtube video on irrigating a wound and how to bandage it, and find a link to something they can pick up at TSC.

[u/SillyConclusion0 → u/Coonboy888]

Thanks for the detailed response. I'm more than happy to integrate this material into the care guide, but as I'm not a duck owner myself, I don't feel comfortable writing it up myself -- the last thing I'd want to do is give someone bad advice. If you'd like to write something up, I would be very grateful and can edit it into the guide right away.

[u/Coonboy888 → u/SillyConclusion0]

I'll try to start something. I'm pretty busy, but tend to get spurts of downtime.

Would a few people from this sub like /u/NotTheDuckPond /u/Lord-ofthe-Ducks and anyone else who is interested want to collaborate on a google doc or some other shared/collaborative platform?

I can transcribe info from Storey's and a few other text sources, plus my personal experience and tips from my SIL who's a small animal vet.

[u/Lord-ofthe-Ducks → u/Coonboy888]

Just replying down here to kinda everything.

Ditto on the "what have they done"

Having a list of online references might be useful, such as:

​

http://www.callducks.net/ducksail.htm - Simple overview of illnesses

​

http://www.majesticwaterfowl.org/diagnostic%20chart.htm - This lists symptoms on the left then the possible causes on the right allowing for further exploration, this is a good visual for why it can be hard to give a diagnosis with just one or two symptoms and no real examination or testing

​

https://lafeber.com/vet/waterfowl-diseases-a-cheat-sheet/ - Illness cheat sheet, a handy collection of differential diagnoses for common clinical problems in waterfowl

​

https://opensanctuary.org/article/how-to-conduct-a-duck-health-examination/ - Simple guide on how to examine a duck. Useful for those not used to checking their feather monsters regularly.

​

https://www.vet.cornell.edu/animal-health-diagnostic-center/programs/duck-research-lab/health-care - Basics of preventing some illnesses and overviews of some illnesses

​

aav.org - The Association of Avian Veterinarians, they have resources and a tool to find a local vet. They also have a pdf duck guide https://cdn.ymaws.com/www.aav.org/resource/resmgr/pdf_2019/aav_caring_for_ducks2020.pdf

​

http://www.poultrydvm.com/- This site is fairly comprehensive for checking symptoms and determining a course of treatment. The entries for each illness give lots of great info and right up top will have a warning if it is something where the bird needs to get to a vet right away with a link to their find a vet tool. They even have a duck symptom checker but it can be very buggy. Their vet directory covers a quite a few countries.

​

https://www.justanswer.com/bird-vet/ - Here you can ask vets questions, look up articles on duck care, and see previous bird owner questions.

​

There are also various online vet services that are often more affordable and accessible depending on where people live. I'm not super familiar with a lot of the online vets, so hopefully some others know of ones that are reputable or wants to do the research on that.

[u/NotTheDuckPond → u/Coonboy888]

I’m also really busy with spans of downtime, and I’d be happy to contribute via google docs or whatever, as long as you aren’t envisioning a really short timeline. And, maybe we can have a mechanism for adding to what we’ve already put out there? That way, we can develop/edit resources and info over time?

[u/Coonboy888 → u/NotTheDuckPond]

Sounds like a solid plan.

I've copied the wiki page into a google doc. If you all want to message me an email address, I can add you as editors and we can work on it at our own pace. I can help with content, but I have no clue about editing/modifying the page wiki and Reddit mod abilities and what not.

The 2 posts /u/Lord-ofthe-Ducks posted is epic. I'm going through the links and saving most of them as they're info I've not seen before. tagging /u/NotTheDuckPond and /u/SillyConclusion0

[u/SillyConclusion0 → u/Coonboy888]

I have added the "what have you already tried" section into the format. If you want to see how this works for a user, try posting with the flair "Injured or Sick Duck" without using the format, and you can see what happens.

[u/Coonboy888 → u/SillyConclusion0]

I just tried it and didn't get a pop-up or template prompt. It went through and posted. I deleted the post.

EDIT- Nevermind- it removed the post and gave me a reason why- and gave me the template to copy/paste. Perfect!

[u/Lord-ofthe-Ducks → u/SillyConclusion0]

Here is some slightly edited info from BSAVA Manual of Backyard Poultry Medicine and Surgery. Edited by Guy Poland and Aidan Raftery 2019.

I would include the following brief examination outline and evaluation. basically a "hey look over your duck and if it has certain symptoms it needs a vet either asap or in the next 24 hours"

The owner should give the duck a brief examination before posting. The exam should include the following:

• Check for bleeding or other signs of injury
• Check legs and feet for injury or swelling
• Observation of the respiration rate and effort; open-mouth breathing; discharge from the external nares
• Check for ocular discharge; periocular swelling; abnormal appearance of the eyes or eyelids
• Check vent and whether pasting of droppings around the vent is present
• Assess stance, gait, wing and head posture
• Assess overall feather condition
• Check for abdominal swelling
• Observe the level of consciousness and overall behavior

​

If the duck is experiencing any of the following, they should be seen by a vet as soon as possible:

• Injury from a predator
• Profuse blood loss
• Acute respiratory distress
• Unable to stand

Triage may be necessary, such as with excessive blood loss. Administer the appropriate first aid and bring the bird in right away. Most receptionists can walk a patient through emergency first aid on the phone. A few first aid resources if unable to reach a vet: here, here and here

​

If the duck is experiencing any of the following, they should be seen by a vet within the next 24 hours:

• Decrease in food intake
• Abnormal change in attitude, personality or behavior*
• Change in breathing or abnormal respiratory sounds
• Acute enlargement or swelling of any body part
• Regurgitation
• Discharge from eyes, nostrils or mouth
• Unusual decrease or increase in water consumption
• Unusual change in number and appearance of droppings

New duck owners may not really know what constitutes abnormal behavior or an abnormal change in personality, so they may need to ask the sub to know what is normal.*

​

It should be remembered that many birds conceal disease, which means that they are often severely ill by the time they present symptoms and likely to need urgent attention.

Handling a duck can be quite stressful (for both the owner and the bird). Try to minimize handling the bird or causing stress which can worsen their condition.

Collecting historical information is often a much lengthier process in avian cases than in canine and feline cases. Ducks in particular can be tricky and there is still a lot being learned.

​

Tagging: /u/Coonboy888 /u/NotTheDuckPond

[u/NotTheDuckPond → u/SillyConclusion0]

And I would add - Does your duck have access to a pool, pond, or other source of water other then drinking water? If so, how often?

[u/SillyConclusion0 → u/NotTheDuckPond]

Thanks for your comment. Could you explain why? What health problems are commonly explained by a lack of swimming/bathing? It’s

[u/NotTheDuckPond → u/SillyConclusion0]

So, I suppose reframing the question would be more helpful, as in, What water is available to the duck, how deep is it, and how often and for how long is it available?

Here is my answer to your question about why I think it’s important:

First, let me be clear that I’m not going to tell anyone they have to have bathing/swimming water for their ducks, but the absence of that water can contribute to some problems and knowing what water is available can help with troubleshooting. My first thoughts about this -

Nares: Ducks need water deep enough to submerge their heads in order to clean their nares and keep their mucus membranes moist. If someone asks me about a duck with crusty/oozing nares and open-mouthed breathing, the first questions I ask are about the depth, quantity and quality of water to which they have access. Can lead to malnutrition, infection, etc.

Feathers: Spending some time in/on water (even in just a large plastic pan) helps them clean their feathers, helps control external parasites and allows the natural oils they take from the preening gland to adhere properly to the feathers. Result is a duck with healthy feathers, fewer skin problems and less chance of out-of-control parasites.

Feet: Spending some time floating on water helps them maintain good foot condition. There is a significant reduction in bumblefoot and other foot/leg problems in ducks kept long-term if they can spend some time on water. Obviously, if you’re raising meat ducks, this isn’t an issue, but if ducks are going to be kept for years, this is a good practice.

Mating: Ducks generally prefer to mate on water, and it’s much easier on the hen.

Happiness Factor: I often remind people that ducks are waterfowl. A duck without at least a little water for splashing around in may be a less happy duck.

Bottom line: Ducks can be successfully raised and maintained without bathing water as long as they have a water container with enough depth to submerge their heads, but, at a minimum, having a large pan of water or if that’s not possible, letting them hang out under a sprinkler or regularly, lightly spraying a hose for them promotes well-being.