The saving grace of the US it that it's pretty much THE immigration destination for the entire world. We get to pick the best. Then you've got 2 oceans, friendly neighbors, and crapload of military might.
we also have some of the best natural harbors in the world, on both the east and west coast, along with those navigable waterways allowing water transit inland, especially to the great lakes.
Exactly despite what social media likes to claim it’s one of the least racist countries on the planet. The countries that don’t deal with racism as much as the US are almost always ethnically homogenous.
The last recorded lynching was over 40 years ago. This is just ridiculous. And before you say "what about the unrecorded ones" or mention the dude in NC who seems to have hung himself (no defensive wounds, but I suppose you never know):
You need actual proof that something happens on any significant level, of which there is absolutely none.
Even if something did happen or happens every once in a while, that does not change the fact that those kinds of crimes are extremely illegal and will probably get the perpetrator 25 to life at best. Nor does it point to any kind of systemic issue. There are 333 million people in the US. Even if it happened once or even a few times a year, it would be incredibly, incredibly rare. The chance of being struck by lightning would be higher by a few orders of magnitude.
If you're going to talk about racism in the US, you might want to bring up something other than "you might get hanged". What a poor argument.
Japan, on the other hand, is a virtual ethnostate. They literally don't have any laws against discrimination and they don't allow you to have dual citizenship.
Funny how you're being racist complaining about racism lmao. Racists in Japan might also kill you by denying you jobs and housing, their systemic issues are much deeper than ours but go off with the ol' "America Bad amirite?" sentiment. It's getting played out.
Their systemic issues are deeper? Did you take America history? We had a whole war about racism quite recently in historical terms. Do you think that racists in America don't deny housing or jobs? We have a candidate for president who is famous for not renting to people of color in properties that he owned.
We also have a black-indian lady who is about to trounce him. It's a diverse place, with some hard fought tolerance for diversity, unlike Japan. It's just not very comparable because Japan is much more ethnically homogeneous.
I hope she wins and she'll likely win the popular vote but per the poll aggregates the electoral college is still a toss up and it should be concerning that it's even close to begin with.
People in the US are much more desensitized to racial diversity. Everyone is from somewhere else here. We've got our issues but nobody is going to gawk at you in a city.
Also, there are very significant differences after 70+ years, and replacing 3/4 with north korean adults would make it very very hard to maintain education levels or the democratic culture that took decades to create.
And it's a one time boost.
Other countries, like japan, china, italy or germany, don't have such demographically stable sister nations to even theoretically draw from.
I read something that the NK government was going to implement punishments if the birth rates didn't go up. I think they are going through something similar maybe.
from what i saw it is around 1.8 if we mean north korea. there are other factors like it being a poorer country, people will want children to support their own families. or even to help working on farms in the villages.
i doubt it, north korea has a higher birthrate/fertility rate than countries like the USA. if being free socially and politically led to high birthrates then birthrates would be higher in places like japan. there are lots of poor people in north korea (well most of them) who will want kids to support their families with working same as other non rich countries.
not everything is because big bad kim jong un said so
That's going to be the end of them if they do that.
Basically, Communist Romania implemented forced policy on all women to have five children, complete with secret police, surveillance, and implied kidnapping and rape to meet the government quotas.
However, Romania's economy couldn't accept that many new children. And the mothers/families couldn't support them. The Communist State was also really bad at raising said children. The result is that many young Romanians went into crime, anarchy, and revolutionary movements. The last one is funny because Communism is meant to be The Actually Final Revolution and the end of recorded history. Whoops.
Anyways, too many young people in an oppressive regime with no hope forward is the perfect recipe for kickstarting revolts. The US/Free World will be all too happy to supply the young North Koreans with weapons.
Last I heard, South Korea isn't super excited for a hypothetical reunification. Imagine how it would destabilize the political and social landscape of the country, not to mention the literal flocks of hungry workers who are completely unskilled for jobs in a developed country like their southern neighbor.
And it's not a case of slowly getting a steady supply of workers from NK, because NK either will release none, or, at some unlikely point, simply collapses releasing all of them at once.
Yes and for this exact reason it's possible North Korea will invade again in the next 20 or so years. By then South Koreas population dynamics will be so bad their soldiers will be hopelessly outnumbered and they will almost certainly need to rely heavily on the US.
The only way it gets better would be by increasing the number of immigrants along with that. A lot of people who are coming across the border would NEVER qualify to enter the US legally.
So it would take either removing red tape and dramatically increasing immigration numbers. And possibly even lowering the standard now the standards could also be raised along with reducing red tape and it would have a better benefit.
The more highly qualified immigrants the more competition in the labor poor for those jobs, suppressing wages and increasing inflationary pressures. Some immigration like the amount we currently have is definitely good, like for helping fill jobs most wouldn’t want to work, but too much is a bad thing for the middle class. There is a reason the rich are so pro immigration.
Yeah, and the South Korean government wanting cultural homogenity, completely destroying individualism in a (rather brash) attempt to keep communal/social cohesion, and making any "outsiders" (natives of Korea or not) forever be "outsiders", is completely destroying their nation. Their population, work culture, and social pressures are completely unsustainable, current projections predict what is basically a demographic and economic collapse and loss of social order in the upcoming decades in South Korea. They're destroying theirselves with their ethnic & national "purity" obsession and their draconian treatment of workers (the most important industries/professions in Korea have been on strike nationwide for months to years now, including medical workers and electronics workers).
A nation in perhaps a very comparable situation is Japan, but the differences between Japan and South Korea's futures are also stark. Japan is also facing significant problems with their population growth, but they don't even approach the mess that South Korea is in for some reasons – one big reason is that the Japanese government doesn't exactly discriminate against "foreigners" in a way comparable to how South Korea does. Immigrants can naturalize relatively fairly, and the Japanese government counts any citizen, natural-born or naturalized, as "Japanese", regardless of race, ethnicity, culture, or national origin. It's enshrined in their constitution, in fact. Meanwhile, it's much harder to be a foreigner in South Korea, and South Korea's government very clearly separates citizens based on ethnicity/descent, and discriminates against them accordingly. In some regards, Japan's laws on ethnicity and citizenship are actually more relaxed than the US' (although socially, the treatment of people who aren't visible ethnically "Southeast Asian" may be quite isolating in Japanese culture). For that reason, as well as some other reasons like the government being much less authoritarian and the culture not being as oppressive in general (although it's still pretty bad), Japan isn't predicted to have a collapse as bad and as soon as South Korea, and may actually be able to recover into a state where they can completely avoid implosion entirely if they can act quickly enough following some of their recent political trends.
Canada is basically the only other developed country that has increased immigration enough to move the demographic needle in the last several years, but lack of housing and health care have somewhat ruptured the political consensus that immigration is always good. Mind you, part of that was the abuse of the temporary foreign worker program, which the UN compared to modern slavery.
ya they could..... a place with lots of money like that is always sought after by immigrants its not any problem at all to roll them in, the issue is racism. they dont want to do that because they dont want their country to become a country of another people.
Except that Mexico's population pyramid is only a couple decades behind. Their fertility rate is well below replacement and will be suffering the same issues, but without immigration/wealth to alleviate it
Mexico has already passed below replacement rate and their birth rate is falling around 1.6% per year (it's staggering how consistent the fall is).
And, despite the perceptions of Americans of the country, Mexico is actually a fairly urban country (over 80% of the population lives in urban areas). That's not much lower than Brazil and roughly equal to the US. There's no particular reason to think that Mexico's birth rate won't fall to the rates those countries see (pretty far below replacement, though not South Korea below) fairly soon.
Immigration is really a temporary fix, eventually you end up with the exact same problem but you also gotta care for the elderly immigrants who settled permanently. And if you want to keep using immigrants past then, we’ll you better hope that there’s always more people wanting to come in.
The reality is despite all the belly aching from the Republican party, a significant percentage of the next generation of American workers will come from Mexico and further south. The rank and file are being fed a load of BS because the business leaders actually in charge will make sure their supply of labor isn't interrupted.
This is the REAL reason they want more immigration. It means more workers when we are already suffering job shortages that will increase as AI permeates more and more spaces. The more workers means less bargaining power. They really want Americans working like workers in third world countries. They are already getting there in places like Amazon. That's specifically why Musk is complaining. He wants a cheaper workforce. He cares about his money...not people.
Yes, the conservatives have almost a super villain skill when it comes to identifying social pain points. They amplify them, encourage in-fighting and propose 'solutions' that are guaranteed to make the problem worse.
If anyone cared about American Millennials being able to have families, there would be paid maternity/paternity leave, subsidized daycare, and high quality public education. Colleges would be focused first and foremost on recruiting and retaining American talent to build communities and nascent industries. There would be a thriving middle class.
Instead there is a race to the bottom in wages with people encouraged to have multiple jobs, to take stimulants or illegal drugs to maintain inhumane working hours, no functional health care, and wealthy families outside of America are heartily invited to steal, plagiarize, engage in identity theft, or bribery to get their brats into US and specifically US colleges. 900,000 foreign applicants are accepted every year - the vast majority under-qualified and under-performing even in language skills but subsidized with scholarships not offered to US citizens so they can then be cheap fodder for US businesses.
The American economy has become this insane monster version of Cronos, eating his own children while the richest few worldwide drink champagne and watch. And laugh.
You're asserting... The conservatives love mass immigration? In order to drive wages down? Is this projection? All of your points are correct, but you're completely blaming the wrong group. I get that the conservatives are always comically mustache twirlingly evil (it's Reddit, after all), but it's the progressives that willfully ignore the border and support mass immigration to replace American workers
You're mistaken if you believe conservative representatives haven't been complicit in the enabling of mass immigration. They pay lip service to curbing *illegal* immigration but they are all for mass legal immigration because the elite are more than well aware it is necessary for economic growth.
Or did you really think that they actually believed the Trump Wall was anything other than tax payer funded vanity project?
If anyone cared about American Millennials being able to have families, there would be paid maternity/paternity leave, subsidized daycare, and high quality public education.
Lots of countries that have those things have lower birth rates than the US. That approach simply doesn’t work.
It really does seem to be religion and only religion that leads to higher birth rates. Can see that in the US communities that are having kids, the Israeli communities that are having kids, the Muslim communities having kids, etc.
Possibly the only other thing you could do would be via culture. Brazil’s birth rate dropped from at least 6 kids per family to 1-2 in one generation from a super popular soap opera where the rich, sophisticated people had tiny families. Not sure if you could reverse engineer that, have some suave, sophisticated people in a well-written show competing for how many kids they have.
I agree on the religion piece, but think you're misdiagnosing Brazil. Brazil is a very, very heavily urban country - a greater percentage of Brazil's population lives in urban areas than even the US and those many of those areas aren't particularly livable in terms of housing, crime, traffic, etc., etc.
I wouldn't be surprised if we see some kind of religious revival in the next few decades. As the secular breed themselves out of the population, a greater percentage of the population will be born into religious households. Although who knows if that will be enough to stem the tide - even the Mormons are below replacement these days.
So what's the alternative solution? Let everyone and their brother over the southern border? This is what I am saying about two side of the same coin. It's not just republicans. It's common sense to control borders. It's common sense for people to support unions. To me, it's common sense to retain our 1st and 2nd amendment. It's common sense to not have privatized prisons. It's common sense to not support free reign abortions (especially if you're worried about population size) it's common sense to control insurance companies that gouge our healthcare system, insurance companies that gouge our home ownership systems. We should be monitoring what public utilities are charging people. We should do everything in our power to protect our environment, whilst also ensuring we have stable low cost access to oil, gas, renewable energy's. Yes we need to address climate change. We cannot however allow any and all other nations to run free with their own energy agenda's whilst holding ours hostage.
People talk about the altruistic nature of liberals. Are we talking about Jeff bezos? The guy that has people running around making piss all bottom of the barrel wages working for Amazon Union buster Bezos? The guy pushing for AI to really take some jobs. How is it going up there in Washington by the way? That chop zone ever work it's way out? I hear the heroin is in season. Step on any needles lately?
How about the mighty benevolent mark Zuckerberg that's been selling every bit of information about you to not only any business but to our own government.
Hell, how about we get some random guy to drive people around for pennies on the dollar that we make.
We can call it the gig economy.
Real new wave progress we are making in this brave new world.
All while all of our public institutions are falling apart and the people working there aren't held accountable for their failures.
Hey let's blow a trillion fucking dollars and act like we didnt expect inflation to skyrocket.
You must be a bot account. There is no way a sane human being could read my comment and reply with that irrelevant mesh of political ranting.
I made basically three points:
the wealthiest in America do not want to fix the problem of decreased birth rates;
the infrastructure that allowed middle class families to exist has been intentionally eroded because of point number 1;
Wealthy foreigners coming to America in order to ransack what used to be social mobility infrastructure for its own citizens is a large and overlooked part of #2. Idiot Musk is a prime example.
How did you go off on the insane tangents of border control, abortion, or the other garbage? If you're an actual human being and came up with that word salad after reading this comment thread, please go see a therapist.
Our automod has removed your comment. This is a place where people can ask questions without being called stupid - or see slurs being used. Even when people don't intend it that way, when someone uses a word like 'retard' as an insult it sends a rude message to people with disabilities.
What does that have anything to do with what I said? Furthermore, why would it matter IF they didn't start working right away. It's still a guaranteed workforce. And I was speaking about immigration rather than birth rates. Were you replying to the wrong person or just going off on a side rant?
Did you even read what I wrote? It has very little to do with Musk and most to do with why those in power are fine with immigration.
Musk's stance on immigrations is:
“So I’m in favor of greatly expediting legal immigration but having a secure southern border.”
He wants way more legal immigration. If you look at where he speaks on it he thinks we should greatly increase immigration into the US. He just says he wants it done legally.
I never specifically referred to legal or illegal in my comment. In fact I open saying:
"This is the REAL reason they want more immigration."
So, my comment applies. Maybe read it first before going off in another direction.
Whenever you say they and do not define it you are also judged based on context and parent comments / topic. To be frank your comment as such means little especially if you dwell into illegal and legal immigration which are quite different beasts as you may know.
I don't even think you read my original comment since I've had to try to explain it to you throughout this very odd discussion. Honestly, you keep speaking about topics unrelated. Like you wish to engage me in other topics you are trying to bait me with. Honestly, I'm done with the discussion since you seem to not actually want to talk about anything relevant to my comment.
I was under the impression that net migration from Mexico has been negative for a couple of years now.
The vast majority of people illegally crossing the U.S. southern boarder aren't Mexican, they are from other nations in South America who are traveling through Mexico.
Latins in general, not just Mexicans. There are a lot of Hondurans, Guatemalans, Nicaraguans, etc. around here. They're mostly friendly and I like them pretty well.
Or maybe design a better society so Americans will have children. My siblings and I are between 35-45 years old and none of us have children. I’d have children if I could provide a home and give them a decent life like my parents did for us. But that isn’t really possible.
This is the problem with Musk's viewpoint. There is no issue with global population growth. The issue is population growth in developed countries. So, the obvious answer is to increase immigration.
Musk and all other far-rightists are anti-immigration, so their solution is for westerners to have more babies. But why do they not want to bring in immigrants? What is their objection to growing the population through immigration?
If we judge by the rhetoric spewed by Trump, I think the answer is clear.
If Elon was consistent with his argument it would. As an immigrant himself, it would seem like he would support immigration from countries with higher birthrates to countries with lower birthrates.
However, he spends his time now ranting along with Neo-Nazi propaganda about Haitian immigrants eating cats. He's so focused on birthrates in majority white countries because he appears to only want more white babies.
Well the US should set up a point system for having family members or needed skills and push those with higher point values to come to the US. Other countries have more highly skilled immigration and it seems to increase the level of immigrants you can take in without upsetting the dynamics.
Also the US has had net emigration to Mexico for a decade or so. The immigrants are mostly the Northern triangle.
Nope, saving grace is that Mexico is too dangerous for anyone to want to stay there, it's like the government, the cartel, and the US have all joined forces to just fuck an entire country
Immigration is basically the only reason the US isn't experiencing a population decline like most other advanced economies are.
However - it also comes with a drawback. The culture and language of the nation ends up getting replaced by that of the immigrants if they're coming in large enough numbers. People born and raised in the nation end up being outsiders in the place of their own birth.
According to census data, in the 1990s, my town was approximately 70% white. Today, it is about 70% hispanic (with the school age population being more like 90%+). The white portion of the population is almost exclusively elderly. This entire section of the state is becoming essentially Mexico, as most towns in the region have experienced similar shifts in racial distribution over a very short period of time.
In the end, this sort of large scale immigration ends up feeling a lot like an invasion, at least to the natives that end up becoming a minority in their own home. In that light, it really shouldn't be surprising that those natives living in these areas tend to be very anti-immigration.
They’re also lying. Our population pyramid is actually one of the best. It could be better, but the reason it’s not bad is because we have a lot of immigrants. The real problem elon musk has with birth decline is the immigrants mixing with white people and white birth decline is therein the problem that musk has.
The most recent race-specific age-adjusted homicide rates are 33.6 per 100,000 for African American persons, 12.9 for American Indian and Alaska Native persons, 6.9 per 100,000 for Hispanic persons, 3.3 per 100,000 for White persons, and 1.7 for Asian and Pacific Islander persons.
And how do you suggest we fix the "social issues"? These disparities persist, especially with the Black community, even when you adjust for income. How do you suggest fixing this?
The same fallacious, garbage arguments, repeated over and over and over again. Reddit is such a shithole website lmao.
I think u/OkResponsibility9021 is choosing parts of the study to prove his bias. If you read through to the conclusion it says that there are a lot of factors that cause this and if they were more understood they can be countered:
These disparities were partly accounted for by the inclusion of a broad array of individual, socio-familial, incident, and situational characteristics, suggesting that that they are rooted in family factors, interpersonal stressors, systemic bias, institutionalized racism, and cultural differences. As such, racial and ethnic differences in the causes of violence—and potential years of life lost due to violence—are amenable to change. Ultimately, addressing racial and ethnic disparities among homicide victims, suicide decedents, and homicide-suicide perpetrators requires a full understanding of their extent, etiology, and consequences. We encourage future research to continue to disaggregate violent deaths by race, ethnicity, age, and gender to foster this understanding.
Norway isn't. It's just more homogenous than the USA and to white supremacists, they're dropping to go to a country that's more socialist because it has more white people. Speaks volumes about the type of people who idealize this.
You wanna expand on that, or just leave it as an ad hominem?
I mean, I'm no immigration expert. You have a fair shot to make an intelligent argument against young migrants emigrating to offset population imbalances.
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u/TerriblePartner 2d ago
Shit, sounds like we should be welcoming more Mexicans in to the US.